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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Confusion

Something of a gaff earlier. Should have placed the following here, in this thread, taken from

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14101&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Girolamo Savonarola -smithers[/url]

Quote:
The life of Savonarola exemplifies many precious qualities that our fainthearted and distracted age so desperately needs. [b]We are barren and deficient in prayer, patience, purity and most importantly a sacrificial love for Jesus.[/b] Until we as the body of Christ return to these holy principles, true reformation and revival will not be realized; Oh Lord break our hearts and open our eyes!

Quote:
One day, he saw a vision of the heavens opened, and all the future calamities of the Church passed before his eyes. He then heard God's voice charging him to warn the people. From that moment he was convinced of his prophetic calling, and he was suddenly filled with a new unction and power. His preaching was now with a voice of thunder, and his rebukes against sin were so terrific that the people who listened to him sometimes went about the streets half-dazed, bewildered, and speechless. His listeners were often so overcome with tears that the whole church echoed with the sounds of sobbing and weeping. Workmen, poets and philosophers, all would burst into tears under his passionate preaching.


I am not angry and I may be a bit besides myself here, but this whole prophetic business is just very grievous. Where is this evidential effect, this sort of prophet? Where are the reports of anything even remotely resembling this manner of things happening in the here and now? Even in recent years?

No fear, no trembling, no worry, no cause for concern, no breaking and mourning and no change. And we are to pay attention to these that are loosely making all kinds of spurious comments, crediting them to God almighty, telling us of what is coming, getting it either half wrong, half baked and it is all met with a shrug? No big deal? We have come to accept the unacceptable and a poor definition is the new translation of what the form and function is.

And the world just laughs at it all.

There are no prophets today. Maybe, just maybe the true prophet is contained in our midst, stripping away all that is false and flippant and frivolous. Demanding that there is an accountability and a proving. Rubber on the road facts and tangible evidence. Think we have given far too much slack for slackness and just sheer lack ... The level of acceptance has become one of 'close enough' and 'maybe' and 'perhaps'. In a word ... gullible.

We need a revival desperately.



_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/7 15:25Profile









 Re:

richardf said:

"My humble opinion (I'm not a scholar, a theologer, a preacher etc), is that in the Bible, the Old Testament prophets would always says things like, 'Thus sayeth the Lord,' or 'The Lord has said.' Prophets never point people to themselves but to God.

When this man says 'I have a pretty good track record...sometimes I miss,' it makes me feel uneasy. A true prophet or one that has a genuine, God-given prophecy would hardly even mention themselves, I mean after all, prophets are here to point people to God aren't they?"

Hallelujah! Brother Richard!

 2007/1/7 16:58
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: reasoning together

bro Mike

Quote:
I am not angry and I may be a bit besides myself here, but this whole prophetic business is just very grievous. Where is this evidential effect, this sort of prophet? Where are the reports of anything even remotely resembling this manner of things happening in the here and now? Even in recent years?



[b]The Following is an observation and would best be understood as such. not trying to stir the pot but try and get this thing broken down so we can understand a bit better.[/b]

i feel your heart coming through

isn't one described as "beside himself with rage?" :-P anyhow bro, i've gone through the prophetic books (not that i have gleaned all i can from them as yet) but i've seen little evidence of any such repentance from the people of Israel to whom the prophets were sent.this is not to say that such repentance is impossible but rather that this in fact IS the desired effect to any prophet who is sent forth with a word of repentance.most of the time, that is not the case Jeremiah spoke of the coming judgment and God showed Him (and he complained about) that people wouldn't repent. in this book we see partly how false prophets prophecy, they speak of more good times when clearly people need to repent. i'm wary of such prophets. this is not to say that nobody repented but the majority didn't and the judgments failed. there is no prophet who preached repentance and warned of coming judgment whose warnings didn't come to pass.Jonah however did have some success, nineveh did repent and was spared for a season but later relapsed and you know how the rest went... what i have observed is that the people of Israel didn't repent until AFTER judgment came. i guess in looking back on what Israel went through we assume that we'd be able to recognize a prophet right away (i guess assuming he fits our bill) where Israel failed even though we're guilty of much of the same thing. Israel was not very nice to most of the prophets. in going through Ezekiel (bless God for the word) showed me where Ezekiel was swept off in the spirit to Jerusalem from babylonia and came before the priests of the temple who subsequently didn't repent and Jerusalem fell. Isaiah said "who has believed our report?!" hardly anyone did apparently hence the prophet's lament. in the n.t. we begin to see some changes. JOhn the baptist baptized many and indeed many came to repentance. when Christ came, not that many people repented and He mourned over Jerusalme because of it because He knew what the Father had in store for her unrepentance.

Quote:
No fear, no trembling, no worry, no cause for concern, no breaking and mourning and no change. And we are to pay attention to these that are loosely making all kinds of spurious comments, crediting them to God almighty, telling us of what is coming, getting it either half wrong, half baked and it is all met with a shrug? No big deal? We have come to accept the unacceptable and a poor definition is the new translation of what the form and function is.



if the message of repentance or impending judgment is seen as false, what is the incentive for repenting or trembling? :-? i wouldn't give too much credence to any prophet who comes preaching "peace, peace" if judgment is concerned, i perk up because if indeed there is something i need to repent of, i need to know and do right by God. this is not to say everyone who comes out saying "judgment is at hand" is right but i'm not about to risk getting in trouble with God over some mess i had been warned about ahead of time.

i guess at best we'd like prophets who fit an ideal of sorts, anything but repentance/judgment? maybe at worst we're unwilling to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe we have residual idols to busy and things to repent of before a HOly God or we'll die.

Quote:
We need a revival desperately.



AMEN!!! revival will come after repentance, and repentance after judgement typically as far as i can tell from the experience of the prophets of old.

we need revival alright...


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 19:53Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

A great thread. A few thoughts have come to my mind, as I read through it:

I wonder if we can ever come up with a clear and tidy definition of a “prophet”. Do we see it in scripture? The NT? I like Ravenhill’s list, but wonder if he got it all from God. Like this point:

Quote:
unpardonably hostile


Certainly Paul would not have supported the fact that a true man of God MUST be hated by all.” He taught that a good reputation in the church, as well as the community was a mark of a godly person. Should that not apply to a prophet? Can the bearer of Good News not be a welcome to even a few: the truly desperate soul, the true believer?

Franky, I fear that more than a few misguided people hide their abrasiveness and cold-hearted directness behind such noble labels as “prophet”. What a way to glorify one’s inability to get along with anyone: set yourself above everybody.

Quote:
We have come to accept the unacceptable and a poor definition is the new translation of what the form and function is. This very truth in itself aught to expose the lack of the truly prophetic, and the need.



It doesn’t help that the modern church has developed misconceptions about the OT prophets. Hardened hearts mock such tender traits as weeping, raw honesty, or a burden for the lost. I’ve heard it said that Jeremiah and Elijah suffered from depression. Sure they had low times, but to distort the image of the spiritually mature prophet by portraying them as psychologically unwell?

Quote:
Where is this evidential effect, this sort of prophet?


Mike, you seem to echo the thoughts of the psalmist:
“..no prophets are left, and none of us knows how long this will be.” Ps. 74:9

Quote:
And the world just laughs at it all.



“How long will the enemy mock you, O God?” Ps. 74:10

Corrie said:
Quote:
the media frightens us with doom and gloom every day. Should Christians be terror-stricken by so-called "inspired" leaders like Robertson?

I don't see anything of Jesus in Robertson.


This is also what I thought when I read Robertson’s “prophesies”. Even if all his predictions do come true, it is still most cruel and inhumane to pronounce a fatal diagnosis on a nation without giving it any hope. That, actually is anti-Christ – Satanic! The entire reason the Good News is so good is because Christ came to rescue us from judgment by giving us new life. The spirit of prophecy is Christ – that is, Life, not death and doom!

In Israel, the prophets seemed to reflect the spiritual condition of the nation, and that, I believe is what we see today:

“The prophets are but winds…” Jer. 5:13
“The prophets prophesy lies.” Jer. 5:31

What we see sure makes it tempting to discard the role entirely. Yet, surely God has been preparing his own spokesmen, and in his time, they will come forth and utter the word of the Lord to the people, as Ravenhill said:

Quote:
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has
received the order of the day.



Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/1/7 20:57Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis diane
happy new year to you sis!

Quote:
This is also what I thought when I read Robertson’s “prophesies”. Even if all his predictions do come true, it is still most cruel and inhumane to pronounce a fatal diagnosis on a nation without giving it any hope. That, actually is anti-Christ – Satanic! The entire reason the Good News is so good is because Christ came to rescue us from judgment by giving us new life. The spirit of prophecy is Christ – that is, Life, not death and doom!



even the word of hope itself is sent by God at a time of His own choosing. it may not be immediate. for example, Ezekiel spent about 7 years preaching repentance and judgment for Jerusalem without a word of hope. our Lord showed Him that people would indeed repent and Ezekiel said so. also God showed him in that period that Israel would be restored however he didn't preach that until AFTER the judgment came.

i'm not saying pat is a prophet but if we are to judge wisely, we ought to consider this also. the prophet is to speak whatever he hears from heaven and we must acknowledge that perhaps the word of hope will not come until much later and perhaps it is received better after judgement has come because the exhortation will mean that much more. hope is hope in a time of sorrow.

i've not received any word of restoration but i see repentance coming and this will usher in the revival we've been longing for!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 21:23Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: Prophets Playing with Fire...

Dear Corey,

I agree with your post. More men of God need to learn silence. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Yet too many in the church speak without this fear. They lack wisdom.

In the name of Christ,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/1/7 22:06Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Happy New Year to you too, Ironman,

Quote:
i've not received any word of restoration but i see repentance coming and this will usher in the revival we've been longing for!



I wonder if you are referring to a large scale type of restoration, revival.

However, as individuals, we certainly don't have to wait for that "big day"! That is the wonder of the Good News: it is available for me today - even while no word of restoration is being pronounced.

Ezekiel may not have proclaimed restoration for seven years, but I don't think we can use that to reason to withold the Good News of Christ. Quite the contrary. God's warnings of judgment to prophets aught to be golden opportunities to warn of the need to prepare, that is, turn to Christ.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/1/7 22:23Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis D

Quote:
I wonder if you are referring to a large scale type of restoration, revival.



i was however...

Quote:
However, as individuals, we certainly don't have to wait for that "big day"! That is the wonder of the Good News: it is available for me today - even while no word of restoration is being pronounced.



you're right here and also...

Quote:
Ezekiel may not have proclaimed restoration for seven years, but I don't think we can use that to reason to withold the Good News of Christ. Quite the contrary. God's warnings of judgment to prophets aught to be golden opportunities to warn of the need to prepare, that is, turn to Christ.



Revival is restoration...DUH. i thank God for setting that straight. i was not advocating that we not preach the good news, i just didn't connect revival with restoration right away even though i know revival is coming because repentance is coming after the judgment (which is at the door) hits.

thanks sis


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 22:50Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 A Line Drawn In The Sand: 2007 ...



Bro Ironman ...

Hmmmmm ... another thread on the validity (or not) of NT "prophets" huh? ...

In light of this thread deriving from Pat Robertson's latest "sensing" i'd like to point out that those mentioned in this thread (Pat, Ravenhill, Wilkerson) were/are quick to distance themselves from the mantle of "prophet" as a disclaimer to being held responsible to a "false-prophet" designation if what they "speak" doesn't come to pass ...

You and i are the only ones here on SI (or amongst any other saints i personally know) who dare to say that we believe ourselves called as NT prophets ... And you and i both know one is either called of Him a "prophet", or one isn't - there's no slight letting off of the hook by calling onself say a "watchman" instead ... And we've already been around this mulberry bush a dozen times as to what a NT "prophet" primarily is ...

With this said we also know that if we put a "thus saith the Lord", as we believe we were led of Him to do under ...

[b]Prophetic Credentials II[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=11514&forum=35&start=50&viewmode=flat&order=0
[b]Prophetic Credentials 3[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=12628&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go ...

... on what we believe Holy Spirit is saying to us about soon forth coming events in 2007: Namely ...


- The onset of His calling me forth as a "spokesman" first to His Church, and then to the nations (me) ...
- The onset of my ministry, which will take a multitude with it (me) ...
- Fireballs from heaven & destruction of two American cities in some form (you) ...
- A warning thru you three days prior to American economic collapse (you) ...
- The onset of American economic collapse proclaimed for 20 years (me)
- The onset of mass repentance in America (me) ...
- The onset of Revival - beginning "here", which i believe to be my home church since it was there that i recieved the "word" (me) ...
- The onset of a "final harvest" time (me) ...

... then we're held responsible by the letter of His word to the outcome ... [b]If events come forth as fore-told then God Himself proves us ... If they don't then God, thru scripture, plainly reproves us, regardless of whether we we're sincere, mis-led, or deluded, as FALSE PROPHETS ... Period! ...

If that be the case then we can only ruefully beg His forgiveness FIRST!, then that of our brothers and sisters for whatever the reason we've been instrumental in falsety and misleading, pray we suffer no divinely orchestrated retribution in our lives that we would have not otherwise suffered - resting heavily on 1 John 1:9 & Rom. 8:28, and quietly submit ourselves to a more "normal" Christianity and less "hyper" faith ... To be proven false will for most who know us mark us as an "i told you so" in reference to our claims, and so enable them renewed comfort in Christianity as usual ... But if He proves us true, then i think of how many whose faith will be enhanced in a time when enhanced faith in Him will be ones greatest asset toward the "fear and trembling" of such a time ...[/b]

So as we've talked about previously the gauntlet has already been thrown down, all is written here on SI Forum, the line drawn in the sand back in 2006 - behind that now closed door ... In this new year of 2007, with a "new" door standing agape before us, there's nothing left for us to do or say on this subject, as the only thing left remaining is to WAIT ON GOD to prove us "live" or "memorex" ...

Rest in Him my brother, we're already here and don't have much longer to wait! ...

Blessed be the name of our Father, His Lamb and our Lord Creator Spirit, with Whom nothing is impossible ... Amen

 2007/1/8 13:32Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Hang on a minute, Rahman!

Quote:
as FALSE PROPHETS ... Period! ...


Or maybe just immature, impulsive, and hasty.

Even Peter needed some serious maturing - AFTER Pentecost! (See Gal. 2:11 ff) Because of people fear, Peter was actually working against the Gospel by sitting with Jews rather than Gentiles (of all things!). Yet that didn’t make this preacher of the gospel a false apostle.

I’m not sure that we can use “misfiring” as the ultimate only criteria for labelling someone a false prophet. (that would make Wilkerson false) Surely we must also consider other words they say (or fail to say) , also character (hard to do when they don’t mingle with our lives) There are plenty scriptures that describe false teachers/prophets – almost every book of the NT.

As I said, 100% accuracy is no reason to assume a prophet is sent by God. Recently I was encouraged to watch some “awesome” prophets on a TV show and hear their predictions about Canada. Frankly, their prophesies were so general that there is no way they could be wrong. As far as I was concerned, it was all rubbish. They didn’t even try to demonstrate the fulfillment of last year’s prophesies (which sounded the same as this year’s) These people can’t even read the present-day signs properly, let alone hear from God! Their message had nothing to offer to the thirsty soul, not ONE reference to Christ.

Quote:
….[some] were/are quick to distance themselves from the mantle of "prophet" as a disclaimer to being held responsible to a "false-prophet" designation if what they "speak" doesn't come to pass ...

… some lessons here to learn. It is easy to proclaim predictions – like gut reactions. Everybody does it. Non-believers do it – and frankly, they are good at it because they can read the signs of the times – better than a lot of Christians.

However, if predictions don’t touch hearts, then they are just like explosion of buckshot – hit no specific target. The OT prophets – now those were real!! They understood human character, they addressed a host of specific issues: social injustice, personal sins, worship, response to God, New Covenant prophesies, etc etc.

Quote:
You and i are the only ones here on SI ….who dare to say that we believe ourselves called as NT prophets ..



Of course there could be any number who are in the backside of God’s desert, still fumbling, growing, learning from God – not yet come into bloom. Remember Moses, God has a way of hiding his own. And he also has a way of shaping their calling as he chooses. Of course, we in our culture are big on titles (Rev, Pastor, etc) , but Scripture uses terms to define what they were actually doing, not to function as a label.

I draw from the NT: Pentecost was effective because God’s saints waited for him – till the anointing. In fact, even Jesus waited till he was anointed by the Spirit.

That is something for us ALL to consider, regardless of our call.

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2007/1/8 15:40Profile





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