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EVAVGELIST
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 YOU MUST BE WATER BAPTIZED

Acts 2:37-38 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have some dear friends that believe you must be baptized to be saved. I am looking for someone that can share their views on this subject. I do not personally agree with them, in fact, I can refute their views pretty good. So, on this subject I will take their side that I may learn from your views.

Second, I am wondering why it seems that Evangelical Churches have lost the practice of biblical baptism. In other words in Scripture when someone accepted the Lord they were baptized the same day. In Churches today sometimes they wait 6 months maybe even 5 years.

Thanks for your help, Josh


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/24 18:11Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re: YOU MUST BE WATER BAPTIZED

Quote:
Second, I am wondering why it seems that Evangelical Churches have lost the practice of biblical baptism. In other words in Scripture when someone accepted the Lord they were baptized the same day. In Churches today sometimes they wait 6 months maybe even 5 years.

Funny that you mention that. At our church we take people through a discipleship course and then a membership class first. The whole thing might take a few months. We do this in order that the people count the cost understanding the cost. Back then the cost was clear = Follow Christ = Death. Now, here in America almost EVERYBODY professes Christ. The cost is not clearly laid out. We shold at least make sure a professing Christian understands the gospel and the cost associated before they are baptized.


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Kristy

 2006/12/26 17:43Profile
EVAVGELIST
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

I think it was the Catholic Church that moved from baptism at conversion because people were getting baptized and not changing; so they started all these religious rites and confirmations ECT, why did the reformers keep their man made traditions?


Acts 8:35-37 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

It seems so easy, he preached Jesus, the Ethiopian believed and he was baptized.
I never see them teach a three month discipleship class first, nor do I see them do an in depth study of the persecution of the saints.

About counting the cost, I think when you preach Jesus that is included.
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Thanks, I can never find any that want to give an answer for that.


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/26 20:37Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: YOU MUST BE WATER BAPTIZED

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

My personal opinion is that baptism is just an incredibly beautiful and solem moment, a milestone and a public unveiling of a change of mind, of heart, of a life. But that is all rather secondary as it is opinion...

Wondering out loud here and I do wonder if we have not suffered much in Christianity due to a tendency to have to unravel everything, take it all apart and then put it back together again so it 'makes sense'. That is a broad generalization, but the point here is from the Lords words above, in a nutshell;

"[i]Do this[/i]".

[i]Whatsoever I have commanded you[/i].


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Mike Balog

 2006/12/26 21:14Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Brother Evangelist,

"It seems so easy, he preached Jesus, the Ethiopian believed and he was baptized.
I never see them teach a three month discipleship class first, nor do I see them do an in depth study of the persecution of the saints."

I guess I have never thought about it that way.

I was baptized as a toddler (sprinkled, of course) and now, at age 32, I am wanting to be immersed, having been saved around 4 years now. One reason I personally didn't rush in is that I wanted to see what the Bible said about it. Then there was the mode. I don't make a big deal about it or anything, but I really think Jesus was immersed (Wesley said so, too).

I think the shying away from baptism (however you do it) is part of the massive departure from sound doctrine toward fables and anything that will scratch itching ears. We, me included, just seem to be very 'seeker friendly' instead of warriors of Jesus Christ. To stand up at this time for biblical truth across the board is a full time job. In the back of my mind for years I have pictured myself helping to start a church that does everything 'by the book' but has a heart, preaches the whole Word, etc. I am sure many have done this to see there fruit begin to slip back into the order of the day.

Anyway, no, you don't have to be baptized. Paul said that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel / 1 Cor 1:17. There is no mention of baptism in any of the visions of Christ that Paul had. Now Paul, of course, was himself baptized, and surely was strong on baptism, but many Scriptures make it clear that the emphasis of Christian work is winning souls, not baptism. All this not to diminish that baptism is legitimate, and should be done; as well should the Lord's Supper, etc.

Some may use some of these to prove baptism is essential to salvation:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

But looking at many, many verses that express it is faith in Christ that saves by God's grace, the above verses are obviously taken out of context. Verse like these, as well as the verbal exchange with the thief on the cross, make it plain:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

How could baptism be a gift of God?

Many other verses make it plain. If they won't listen to reason, just pray for them. The Word of God stands whether or not someone wants to take it for what it says holistically (not just taking a verse here and there). Just pray for them and hopefully they will come around. God will deal with them just like He will deal with you and I.


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Hal Bachman

 2006/12/27 0:14Profile
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

Quote:
I think the shying away from baptism (however you do it)



I was seven years old when I was baptized. I went before the Church and publicly confessed Christ as my Lord and Savior and was baptized. I personally believe if someone wants to be baptized when they confess Christ praise God.

KJV John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace
ΚαὶN ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ (anti) χάριτος

I would translate it: And of his fullness have all we received, and grace instead of grace.
In other words the more grace we grasp by obedience the more grace that is given. Obedience to baptism sets you up for more grace. Grace Anti Grace. I look at it like the sooner the better.

About baptism for salvation, I was taught all kinds of verses to back up “you do not have to be baptized”, but by studying all Scripture and all views I would not use certain verses to back my view any longer.

Quote:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



How would you refute? Believeth +Baptized = Saved

Quote:
the thief on the cross, make it plain:



HOW? If people believe after the cross one must be baptized to be saved, how does the thief on the cross make it plain?

Quote:
Anyway, no, you don't have to be baptized. Paul said that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel / 1 Cor 1:17.



Paul was an Apostle he would preach and let others baptize in the Church. Folk were still getting baptized; Paul just was not doing the dunking.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: Ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον The one exercising faith in the son he has life eternal.

I think they would refer to the belief or exercising faith as an action.
KJV James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
True faith or belief is demonstrated by actions, what can the action look like, obedience to his word “Repent and be baptized”.

Quote:
Many other verses make it plain



Can you show me all the plain verses.

Thanks Josh


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/27 2:00Profile
Nellie
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Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

There are a lot of people who get saved after they get real sick.
My Brother was one of those people, and he couldn't be baptized.
I know he is with Jesus, and I don't believe Jesus asked him if he was baptized.
I do believe in baptism, but being saved by the Blood of Jesus is the main thing.
God Bless
Nell

 2006/12/27 10:20Profile
EVAVGELIST
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

My Father died when I was a young boy. He gave his life to the Lord on his death bed paralyzed. I know he is in heaven.

I am looking for Scripture, not experiences. I have friends in high places where they teach you must be water baptized to be saved. If I can convince at least one of them through the Scriptures (and God touching them by his Spirit) they would change their views. If one of them that I deal with would embrace this truth…..it is possible that you would see a worldwide change among their fellowships.

Thanks Josh


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/28 4:43Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Bro Josh:

"How would you refute? Believeth +Baptized = Saved"

For Mark 16, the verse does say that 'he that believes and is baptized will be saved', but then it also says that he that 'believes not shall be damned', while it could have very easily said, 'he that believes not and is baptized not will be damned.'

I heard Curtis Hutson comment on this verse (sometimes country preachers have a way of simplifying things). He said that this verse is the equivalent of saying 'he that gets on the jet plane and sits down shall fly to Jacksonville. And he that gets not on the plane shall not fly to Jacksonville.' He went on: 'It's the getting on that gets you there, not the sitting down. But any fool knows that if you get on you ought to sit down.'

Mark 16 on baptism does make it clear that it is important, but weighing the verse with all other verses on salvation makes the doctrine clear.

Now how I can misapply the Scriptures with Mark 16 can be done with mulitiple verses. I can read:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

...and then say: you must see Christ in a vision and believe on Him to be saved. Likewise, I can read:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

...and say you must confess Christ and believe to be saved.

But taking 20 steps backward and looking at all the Scriptures together to form a doctrine, it becomes clear that faith is the common denominator in all the verses that speak of salvation, but the verses oftentimes include others descriptions and acts because of the heart faith one has experienced.

I am reading Packer's 'Keep In Step With the Spirit,' in which he describes that today we tend to look at the experience one had, and try to figure out the eternal status of someone by the experience they had, when in truth the only evidence (using a Ravenhill line) of the Holy Ghost in someone is a holy life. So whatever someone does during the first few weeks after their salvation can be evidence of their salvation, but is not a 'must needs be.'

I agree the sooner the better, though, and I stand guilty of laziness. Hopefully the next time I post I will be able to say that I have talked to someone about setting up a date to be baptized.

I also agree that God will honor one who is quick to be obediant. I stand guilty of taking long periods of time to do things for God. I do tend to stick with something once I make a decision for the Lord, though.

"If people believe after the cross one must be baptized to be saved, how does the thief on the cross make it plain?"

Because the thief who was hanging next to Christ said, "we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

There was no formality, just a recognition of his own sinful state, and a desire to be forgiven. Jesus said he would be in paradise that very day, no water baptism being performed, only a baptism into the body of Christ.

I would agree that baptism is a legitamate outward work to show an inner change, but it is not the end-all ear mark. Just as many who show outward works will be told 'I never knew you', even though they had prophesied, cast and demons, and done many wonderfuls works in His name; all these things merit them nothing.

I agree that Paul was not doing the dunking after his sermons, but my point was just to say that while Paul recognized the importance of baptism, this 1 Cor verses makes it plain that he is out and out for preaching the gospel, as that is how to get people saved, and therefore where he places much more emphasis.

Here are some verses that show that faith is the determining factor in salvation:

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. (Matt 12:41a The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas)

Mark 16:17a And these signs shall follow them that believe

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:24 (on righteousness) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Cor 7:12-13 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Cor 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

2 Thes 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Now after all these verses, brother, do not think for a minute that I don't believe that baptism is important. I also believe that repentance is a must to genuine faith. By posting all these verses, my goal is just to show that faith, and not baptism or outward evidences, is the determining factor in salvation. What goes on inside is what determines salvation. Faith is heart repentance, and therefore cannot be viewed as a work.

So no outward work is necessary in order to seal your salvation before it gets out of the bag, as the salvation is given by the Holy Spirit, and again, the sealing is done by the Spirit, to the inner man, ie: heart, spirit, etc, not anything performed as an outward sign to nail the salvation down. Baptism is, rather, one of many outward evidences (confession, changed life, changed habits,etc) that salvation has occured.

But like Dr. Hutson said, 'any fool knows that if you get on you ought to sit down.' And so I stand guilty.


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Hal Bachman

 2006/12/30 0:51Profile





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