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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Entire Sanctity is a privilege and the responsibility of every believer HERE on this earth...



How many here on SermonIndex have attained this state of Christian perfection?
If you have, when is the last time you sinned?

 2006/12/26 18:25Profile
Forevidence
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
Entire Sanctity is a privilege and the responsibility of every believer HERE on this earth...



How many here on SermonIndex have attained this state of Christian perfection?
If you have, when is the last time you sinned?



Are you asking this in sincerity or will you use this against the doctrine? Because whether or nat anybody on this site has achieved it or not does not matter nor does it deny or refute the doctrine of Christian Perfection.

I would answer your question the same way Wesley answered his critics about whether or not he knew if any people had attained such a state...

Quote:
"Q. Can you show one such example now? Where is he that is thus perfect?

"A. To some that make this inquiry one might answer, If I knew one here, I would not tell you; for you do not inquire out of love. You are like Herod; you only seek the young child to slay it.

"But more directly we answer: There are many reasons why there should be few, if any, indisputable examples. What inconveniences would this bring on the person himself, set as a mark for all to shoot at! And how unprofitable would it be to gainsayers! 'For if they hear not Moses and the Prophets,' Christ and his Apostles, 'neither would they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.'




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Giancarlo

 2006/12/26 18:36Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Pretty one sided if you ask me... All those authors believed in 'Indwelling sin' and never believed that they could get free from sin.

The writings on monergism.org are reformed- they are biblical.


2 Corinthians 1:10
who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

1 Peter 1:2
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.


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Kristy

 2006/12/26 19:02Profile









 Re:

quote]"But more directly we answer: There are many reasons why there should be few, if any, indisputable examples. What inconveniences would this bring on the person himself, set as a mark for all to shoot at! And how unprofitable would it be to gainsayers! 'For if they hear not Moses and the Prophets,' Christ and his Apostles, 'neither would they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.'





Brother,

The focus is supposed to be on Christ not on some brother or sister who can achieve some "sinless perfection"

If an individual suffers persecution, it is because of the presence of Christ in their life...period. Not because of some spiritual achievement.

I think that quote from Wesley is clear evidence that this "doctrine" is completely man centered and not Christ centered.


To question whether or not someone has experienced this "truth" is a fair question.

I could ask if anyone has experienced Justification and I would get positive responses.

I could ask if anyone has experienced Sanctification and I would get positive responses.

I could ask if anyone has experienced the Love of God and I would get positive responses.

I could ask of anyone has experienced the chastisement of God and I would get positive responses.

Etc.

Is the "truth" of "entire sanctification" untouchable? Unchallengeable? Can it not be validated by the lives of the saints who have experienced it?

 2006/12/26 19:47
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

I think that the negitive effect of this doctrine is the self-righteousness men twist it to be. It gets bad when preachers go out proclaiming thier own righteousness.

Even IF this was true- how much would it matter?

EVEN IF we have "truly righteous" acts now and then we must still continue in the faith until glorification.



_________________________________________
Do Christians Sin?


I agree that God doesn't take away our ability to obey as christians, yet we've all disobeyed regaurdless.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

2 Corinthians 1:10
who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

Romans 6:5-14
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

The idea that sanctification is a liscence to sin is ridiculous...

1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 1:6
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

Point is if you live in sin you are lost. Now if falling in to sin means you are lost then we're all lost because I'm sure you've fallen into sin being saved. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that christians are sanctified after conversion. If you say you haven't sinned since conversion then consider God's standard.

Rejoice always
Do all to God's glory
Looking with lust (Mat 5)
Being angry in your heart (Mat 5)
Giving thanks in all things
Doing all from faith
No complaining
Perfection
Loving God with all you heart mind and strength
Puting God first

I know God gives us ability to do these things but I haven't found a single person who does not sin at all like Jesus. Point being there is no licsence to sin here: If someone takes it that way they have no desire to uphold righteousness and I believe are lost. A christian loves what is good. Also, if a professing christian is not living in righteousness you can be sure that he is lost.

1 John 2:3-4
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I agree that righteousness is not something we ourselves conjure up, but God does. Righteousness flows from a redeemed heart. Without fruit there is no salvation. I'm not saying that we have a "sin nature" but that we fight against our flesh. If there is a pattern of sin in our lives and we walk in darkness we're lost.


Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1 Peter 2:11
Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,

But if we live and walk in the flesh...

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


Quote:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" Do I seek to stop sinning or have I stopped sinning? To be born of God means that I have the supernatural power of God to stop sinning.



You have the power to stop but you still have your flesh. Its not either or its both. When you become a christian you seek to stop sinning and stop sinning (as a practice of sin). But you may still fall into sin. This doesn't mean that you are lost. That should not excite a christian because christians hate sin. We should desire to be totally pure.

Here is a quote from weslyan theology:
Quote:
We believe that after we have experienced regeneration, it is possible to fall into sin, for in this life there is no such height or strength of holiness from which it is impossible to fall. But by the grace of God one who has fallen into sin may by true repentance and faith find forgiveness and restoration.


_________________________________________


This is why we wait eagerly to be in heaven: God will be there and we won't sin anymore!!!


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Kristy

 2006/12/26 20:20Profile
Forevidence
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:
The writings on monergism.org are reformed- they are biblical.



Once again that is one sided...if you are a Calvinist they are biblical... ;-)


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Giancarlo

 2006/12/27 11:10Profile
Forevidence
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:
I think that the negitive effect of this doctrine is the self-righteousness men twist it to be. It gets bad when preachers go out proclaiming thier own righteousness.



Men who are truly holy do not get self-righteous. Some men might, but once againt that does not refute the argument.

Men that think they are justified or regenerate when they are not, do not refute or dismantle the argument that justification and regenretion are actual pure doctrines and very possible to attain and experience.

Also,

When a man repents and gets saved, his repentance consists in turning for self-righteousness, to trust Christ's righteousness not his own.

Christ Righteousness, imputed righteousness is the very reason our Sanctification is accepted. There is no need to toss away Christ's righteousness, it actually becomes the saints actual righteousness by impartation.

I am sure you know about imputed and imparted righteousness right?

So if Christ's imputed righteousness is perfect, why not also His imparted?

This automatically replies 'Entire Sanctity' of spirit, soul, and body, throughout the whole man.


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Giancarlo

 2006/12/27 11:17Profile
death2self
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Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area

 Re:

I understand those who say that those who claim they're sanctified are self-righteous. I'm sure that Wesley and others would agree. There's nothing more odoriferous than a self-righteousness spirit. Self-righteousness is a cheap substitute for entire sanctification and makes it an achievement of the flesh. It does not draw the heart to Jesus.

Two of my dearest brethren, a husband and faith, who have entered into this were told by the Holy Spirit to make cookies and some other goodies for a young Buddhist man. This young man, whom my brother and sister have been witnessing to this young man for some time, broke down in tears and said I love you and your husband. There's a supernatural drawing of people's heart to the heart of Jesus. I've read countless examples of similar type experiences but wanted to recount a more contemporary one.

I believe that sanctification is by faith, not by works as did Wesley and others. It's not something that can simply be intellectualized, it has to be walked out.

In Wesley's sermon 89 entitled "The More Excellent Way" he said this:

Quote:
From long experience and observation I am inclined to think, that whoever finds redemption in the blood of Jesus, whoever is justified, has then the choice of walking in the higher or the lower path. I believe the Holy Spirit at that time sets before him "the more excellent way," and incites him to walk therein, to choose the narrowest path in the narrow way, to aspire after the heights and depths of holiness, -- after the entire image of God. But if he does not accept this offer, he insensibly declines into the lower order of Christians. He still goes on in what may be called a good way, serving God in his degree, and finds mercy in the close of life, through the blood of the covenant. I would be far from quenching the smoking flax, -- from discouraging those that serve God in a low degree. But I could not wish them to stop here: I would encourage them to come up higher, without thundering hell and damnation in their ears, without condemning the way wherein they were, telling them it is the way that leads to destruction, I will endeavour to point out to them what is in every respect "a more excellent way."

Wesley taught that in the lowest state, victory over sin was the Christian norm.

There are many other than the Wesleys, who have taught and believed in "entire sanctification" although they may not have used the exact same terminology. Here's a few brothers and sisters that come to mind that I've read over the last year that believed and walked this out: John and Charles Wesley, John Fletcher, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Smith Wigglesworth, William and Catherine Booth, William Seymour, Duncan Campbell, Rees Howell, G.C. Bevington, Phoebe Palmer, and many others.

What ensued in these lives as I've looked at them closely is that as they entered into this experience great revivals ensued. I'm presently reading an autobiography by J.A. Wood, the delightful author of "Perfect Love."


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Ed Pugh

 2006/12/27 11:19Profile
Forevidence
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:
I believe that sanctification is by faith, not by works as did Wesley and others. It's not something that can simply be intellectualized, it has to be walked out.



Wesley never believed that Sanctification was by works, you have misread him sir.

I would recommend you to read 'Plain Account of Christian Perfection' and 'Checks Against Antinomianism; by John Fletcher. Both reaffirm the idea that Sanctification is faith alone.

But nevertheless you are right about it needed to walked out. Holiness must be preached by a holy life.


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Giancarlo

 2006/12/27 12:14Profile
Nellie
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Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

Amen, death to self.
God Bless
Nell

 2006/12/27 12:28Profile





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