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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Entire Sanctification...Really?

I grew up going to a Nazarene church. I was saved many miles from home while not attending any church. Upon returning to my hometown, I began meeting with this pastor to ask questions and the like. I was a new Christian and was eager to learn, having already felt the calling to ministry. I knew next to nothing about any doctrine and he told me he had not sinned in twenty-some years and that I was going to hell if I did. That was it. He did NOT sin.

This man was, and is, not perfect. It seems to me that he redefined sin. Going by this “new” definition it is easy for him to say he has no sin, but most people see it differently.

His teaching of “Sinless Perfection” contains a state that is impossible to achieve. I stopped going to this church after only a few meetings with him, and now, some years later, have only recently started to investigate entire sanctification, due to a spark of interest that occurred while studying church history and John Wesley.

I currently attend a church with a few grace as a license to sin types that say “its ok, we all fall short” all the time.

It would seem that both sides are not truly seeing the sinfulness of sin, and what a horrendous thing it is. One side embraces it as no big deal, while the other simply repackages it so they cannot see it; effectively hiding it from themselves ,and getting them out of having to deal with it.

Holiness is oh so important !

If the article I am giving a link to holds water then…I…well…

I really would appreciate having some input by some of you that have a more thorough understanding of this “entire sanctification” thing.

I hunger and thirst for righteousness. I long for holiness.

Please read the entire article. He quotes Brennan Manning, and that raised a flag, but the article has some points and explanations I had not heard before and they really have me thinking.

Please let me have your opinions on this subject, but especially this description.

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/entire.htm

I will be working alot in the next few days, starting tonight, but will try to check in.

God bless you all

TJ


_________________
TJ

 2006/12/22 13:54Profile
death2self
Member



Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area

 Re: Entire Sanctification...Really?

Hello Travis,

When I was growing up, I spent some of my time going to a holiness church and heard much about "entire sanctification." Quite honestly I rejected it for a whole host of reasons, the primary thing in retrospective this many years later was my own rebellion. I considered it anti-intellectual and unscriptural both assertions which have been proven by the Holy Spirit to my satisfaction to be false.

I have spent most of 2006 earnestly seeking this experience and have read many of the holiness classics on the topic. One of my favorite books is entitled "Perfect Love" by a wonderful man of God named J.A. Wood. It's in an easy to read format here: [url=http://www.raptureready.com/resource/wood/wood.html]Perfect Love[/url].

I read the article you cited and it explains the doctrine reasonably well but it doesn't explain how to enter into it. I saw the reference to Brennan Manning his experience doesn't equate to entire sanctification in my mind. I have hundreds of accounts of the experience, particularly by the saints of old and was blessed to receive a first edition copy of a little book called "Holy Ann -An Irish Saint and many others.

If you're interesting in reading some of the testimonies go to [url=http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.htm]Wesley Center Online[/url] and go to the Holiness Classics Library (you'll need to sign up) and go to "How They Entered Canaan." You can also go to [url=www.enterhisrest.org]Enter His Rest[/url].

There was a great holiness preacher and teacher named A.M. Hills and some of his articles are on SI. There are some very good articles here: [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=499]Aaron (A.M.) Hills[/url].

I have a very straight and convicting article penned by Catherine Booth that I'm going to send you via email.

I have not yet come into that place yet but from what I have seen is those saints that I know who are sanctified have a singlemindedness for Jesus and it's not a fixation on sinless perfection. Here's how J.A. Wood explained "entire sanctification:"

19. What is entire sanctification or Christian perfection?

Negatively, it is that state of grace which excludes all sin from the heart. Positively, it is the possession of pure love to God. "Blessed are the pure in heart." "The blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanseth us from all sin." "Love is the fulfilling of the law." "The end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart." In the grace of justification, sins, as acts of transgression, are pardoned. In the grace of sanctification, sin, as a malady, is removed, so that the heart is pure. In the nature of the case, the eradication of sin in principle from the human heart completes the Christian character. When guilt is forgiven in justification, and all pollution is removed in entire sanctification, so that grace possesses the heart and nothing contrary to grace, then the moral condition is reached to which the Scriptures give the name of perfection, or entire sanctification. Though the leading writers of our Church define this gracious state in different phraseology, there is an essential agreement among them; their disagreements are more in infelicities of expression than in real differences, and more speculative than fundamental. Their essential agreement will be seen in the following quotations:

Here's a question and answer by John Wesley that I believe is relevant to your question:

Q. 11. But if all this be consistent with Christian perfection, that perfection is not freedom from all sin; seeing sin is the transgression of the law:' And the perfect transgress the very law they are under. Besides, they need the atonement of Christ; and he is the atonement of nothing but sin. Is, then, the term sinless perfection, proper?

"A. It is not worth disputing about. But observe in what sense the persons in question need the atonement of Christ. They do not need him to reconcile them to God afresh; for they are reconciled. They do not need him to restore the favour of God, but to continue it. He does not procure pardon for them anew, but `ever liveth to make intercession for them;' and `by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.' (Heb. 10:14.)

"For want of duly considering this, some deny that they need the atonement of Christ. Indeed, exceeding few; I do not remember to have found five of them in England. Of the two, I would sooner give up perfection; but we need not give up either one or the other. The perfection I hold, `Love rejoicing evermore, praying without ceasing, and in everything giving thanks,' is well consistent with it; if any hold a perfection which is not, they must look to it.

Hopefully I haven't given you too much information but feel free to send me a message if you have questions. Remember justification is by faith and sanctification is also by faith alone. We never earn anything from God but He has made provision through his precious blood to be free from the power of sin.

Our fellowship has a little radio broadcast and we played this song yesterday that recorded by the Kingsmen back in the 60s used the melody from old country song that Jim Reaves recorded, which is entitled "Please Release Me From My Sin:"

Please release me from my sin
Welcome Jesus come on in
For anly you can cleanse my soul
Release me from sin to sin no more

Let me walk on sacred ground
And lead the lost ship that you found
Just lead me on through heaven's door
Release me from sin to sin no more

Send your spirit from above
And teach me your sweet ways of love
I seek for all you have in store
Release me from sin to sin no more

Please release me from my sin...
Release me from sin to sin no more


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2006/12/22 15:52Profile









 Re:

Heres how I see it. Whoever does iniquity sits under the category of Matt. 13:41

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

Again, whoever does commit sin sits under the category of 1 Jn. 3:8

"He that commits sin is of the devil..."

And lastly, might I quote one more verse; whosoever sins sits under the category of 1 Jn. 3:6

"...whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him."

One of the biggest problems when trying to understand these things is to read the Bible in any other way but that of reading it "at this moment in time."

To do iniquity, to commit sin, or to sin is primarily refering to your present tense state. If someone were to ask me, "do you lie?" In our present, modern day, that question could mean:

"Have you ever told a lie in your past?"

Or

"Are you currently, at this moment in time telling a lie?" (This is what John means primarily and what Jesus means in Matt.)

Or

"Will you tell a lie in the future, whether in the next 5 seconds or 5 minutes or 5 hours or 5 years, etc.?" (This is the type of mindset that is evil and is talked about in James 4:13-16;)

Now usually when a person would ask this question, ("do you lie?"), they mean all three and so we see part of the problem.

A person might ask the question, how many times can a "christian" sin untill he is considered one who does iniquity?

This question comes from those with that evil mindset that I talked about. They may be sincere ones asking the question but still presently while they ask it, they boast of there life, which "is even a vapor, that appears for a little time, and then vanishes away."

Now this leads me to speak regarding sin and the truely converted Christian, whom God has shed abroad His love in their heart and shown Himself to them.

What relation does sin and the truely converted Christian have? I don't like to use the word relation because in one sense there is none but so that we may understand clearly, I'll use it.

I think if you can understand LOVE, you will understand the relation between sin and the Christian. I think if you can understand the third verse I quoted, you would just possibly be able to touch an understanding of it.

"...whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him."

Now how can John say such a thing? Men who read this as it is will find contradiction. The wise men will be confounded to accept this plainly as it is! They are too wise to read the Bible without there fancy interpretations! We know that there is no contradiction in the Scriptures and so the reason they find contradiction here is because they have such a poor, low, view of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

If John would write this another way, perhaps it would sound like this:

If God has revealed Jesus Christ to you, you cannot gaze upon Him, you cannot have His love revealed to your soul and at the same time your hands perform sin.

Or could we speak like this: you are to be a vessel emptied of all yourself, pride, unbelief, and idolatry and all evil that fills your vessel; you are to be a vessel to honor, emptied and ready to be filled with that which the Lord would pour into your soul; to be filled with the Holy Spirit "and to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God." (Eph. 3:19)

If you be filled with the fullness of God to overflowing and if Jesus Christ has destroyed the works of the devil, does not God satisfy your souls? Surely those who know the love and knowledge of God cannot sin because they've seen Him and known Him.

As Leonard Ravenhill used to say, Im not saying its impossible to sin but its possible not to sin!

Surely love for Christ will cause a man to cry out to God and beg Him to save His soul from all sin, here on earth, as it will be in heaven. Why are men so afraid to pray and ask the Lord to make them as Jesus was on the earth?
Hasn't Jesus promised that if you ask anything in His name, that He will do it? If that is true, then I don't need to argue over doctrine---whether I can walk in sinless perfection or whether I can be wholly sanctified here on earth or this or that. All I must do is believe, with man all this is impossible but with God all things are possible! Trust in the Lord with all your heart! Believe Him, He is faithful!

Don't setup a limit as to how far a man can go! Learn from the runners, they said no man can break the 4 minute mile but then one guy broke it; then another guy broke it and so you see you set something up as a standard and you never go any further. May it never be so, by the grace of God, be conformed to the image of the Son of God and know the love and knowledge of Him who is worthy forever to recieve "glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen."

Paul Mcgrade

 2006/12/22 20:00
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Negatively, it is that state of grace which excludes all sin from the heart.


I'm not sure how folks use the word 'exclude' in the US but originally the word meant to 'shut out'.

Are we speaking of a work of God which has 'shut out' the possibility of a single transgression from the heart or of the removal of the nature of Sin? I presume we are speaking about the latter.

Robert Barclay, the Quaker apologist, seemed to believe that George Fox had 'attained' a state of grace in which it was impossible for him to fall. Barclay was quick to say that he did not believe he himself (ie Barclay) had attained such a state.

I had a godly friend whose preaching was so absolute that many thought he was claiming a position similar to that of Fox but in his own thinking he always distinguished between the herald and the pastor. "God" he used to say "only commands what is perfect, but in some circumstances He may permit what is imperfect." As a 'herald' he would declare the absolutes of the gospel and the work of regeneration, as a 'pastor' he would spend long hours praying and encouraging saints who had fallen.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/12/23 10:05Profile
Nellie
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Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re: Entire Sanctification...Really?

T. J.
The Nazarine Church that I attended did not practice entire Sanctification.
Someone told me the locked up the Books on Sanctification, and would not let their Members read them.
Entire Sanctification is in a small part, you are one with Jesus and you know Him in such a way that you've never known Him before.
You just do His bidding, and He reveals Himself to you. You fellowship with Him, and the majority of the Christian World thinks you are crazy, because you stay in continuious Peace and Grace.
I have been entirely sanctified, but let the cares of this life, the fear of man, and my own negligence take me away from His Presence.

We have to keep reading the Word, Praying, and just let Him know we love Him more than anyone.
I know God is going to sanctify me again, because I am searching for this sweet fellowship with my Saviour.
There isn't one word that could ever describe it, but it is over-whelming Love Of God.
God Bless you.
Keep asking, and seeking.
Nellie

 2006/12/23 14:12Profile
Nellie
Member



Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re: Entire Sanctification...Really?

It usually comes with a Crisis.
I know that I was in the Spirit and God told me to sing a Song at our Church, "Let me Touch Him."
The Pastor humiliated me in front of the whole Choir, and when I got Home that night, I prayed to die, I was so hurt.
I remember crying so hard that it seemed I would never stop.
I told my Husband that God was going to bring something good out of the situation.
I went and talked with the Pastor, and he told me that only a Man could sing that Song.
I finally told him to just let someone sing it in the Church.
He sang it.
I know that God wanted me to do the Song, but was blessed when it was sung.
In my whole life, I have never been as hurt as I was then.
God poured oil on my wounds.

I wasn't trying to usurp authority over the Pastor, but I was wanting to obey God.

Entire Sanctification is possible, Brother, and I pray He will Sanctify you Wholly.

It is God that worketh in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil 2:13

 2006/12/23 14:30Profile
death2self
Member



Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area

 Re:

Ron said

Quote:
"Are we speaking of a work of God which has 'shut out' the possibility of a single transgression from the heart or of the removal of the nature of Sin? I presume we are speaking about the latter."

It must be the latter. Even Adam and Eve were tempted to sin without the sin nature.

From those I've known who have entered into this experience, the joy of the Lord has been palpable and unescapable. They're not proud but humble because sanctification is God's work, not man's. We can't earn it. It comes by faith alone, not by works.

Here's a quote from Reverend J.A. Wood's book entitled "Perfect Love:"

27. Do you teach a sinless perfection?

Our answer must be according to what is meant by "sinless perfection;" which is a term we never use in teaching Christian perfection.

1. If by sinless perfection be meant infallibility, or a state in which the soul cannot sin, we answer, No. We believe in no such perfection in this life; and further, we know of no one who teaches any such thing, although has been asserted over and over, thousands of times, by the opposers of Christian perfection.

2. If by this term be meant, a perfect fulfillment of the Paradisiacal law of innocence, and freedom from all voluntary transgressions of the law of love, we answer, No. Mr. Wesley says: "Therefore sinless perfection is phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself. I believe a person filled with the love of God still liable to these involuntary transgressions. Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please; I do not." Plain Account, p. 67

3. If by this phrase be meant, a perfect observance of the evangelical law of love, so as to love God with all the heart, soul, and strength, we answer, by the grace of God, Yes. See Deut. xxx. 6.

4. If it be meant a moral condition, in which the soul has no disposition to sin, and will not sin, and by the grace of God is kept from sinning, we answer Yes, to the glory and praise of God.

5. If this question means, does God fully pardon all our sinful acts and absolve us from all guilt, and does He entirely cleanse the soul from a sinful state, so that it becomes pure, or entirely free from sinful proclivities we answer, Yes.

28. Does Christian Perfection exclude a need of the atonement?

No; not for a moment. All Christian life is in Christ, and is dependent upon Him, as the branch upon the vine. "I am the vine, ye are the branches. -- Without me ye can do nothing." The pure in heart abide it Christ, by a continuous faith, which is the vital bond of union with him. Sever this connection, and the spiritual life of the soul ceases at once. Christ does not give life to the soul separate from, but in and with himself.

Purity of heart sharpens the spiritual vision and secures steady and unbroken reliance upon the atonement; hence, those cleansed from all sin, in the fullest sense "live by faith on the Son of God." None see their need of the atonement so clearly, or feel their need of its merits so deeply, as the entirely sanctified. He, more than any other man, feels, --

"Every moment, Lord, I need The merit of thy death."

It requires the same power to sustain creation, it did to produce it; so, it requires the same Jesus who cleansed the soul, to keep it clean. Cleansing grace is keeping grace, and is retained, as it was obtained, by faith. In Christ they are, and in Christ they must abide. Their only danger is in apostasy. "According to your faith be it unto you," is the divine order in keeping as well as in receiving grace. "Who are kept by the power God through faith unto salvation."

Dr. Clarke observes: "What is it that cleanseth the soul and destroys sin? Is it not the mighty power of the grace of God? What is it that keeps the soul clean? Is it not the same power dwelling in us? No more can an effect subsist without its use, than a sanctified soul abide in holiness without the indwelling Sanctifier." -- Clarke's Theology, p. 187.

Mr. Fletcher says: "To say that the doctrine of Christian perfection supersedes the need of Christ's blood, is not less absurd than to assert that the perfection of navigation renders the great deep a useless reservoir of water." -- Last Check, p. 574.


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Ed Pugh

 2006/12/26 9:54Profile
hisremnant
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana

 Re: Entire Sanctification...Really?

Praise Jesus!!!

tjservant wrote:

I hunger and thirst for righteousness. I long for holiness.

Mt 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.

Love your desire and thirst for truth.

Read John Wesleys "Marks of the new birth" If you cant locate it pm me. And please keep posting even on (do not judge)

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

 2006/12/26 14:08Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Wesley is pretty unique in this doctrine. Personally I don't believe we can achieve glorification (or perfection) here on earth. Still it gives no liscense to living in sin (in case that's not clear).

2 Corinthians 1:10
who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

1 Peter 1:2
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;


[url=http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/bbwentire.htm]BB Warfield on entire sanctification.[/url]

[url=http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/joholyspirit15.htm]John Owen on Entire Sacnctification HERE.[/url]

[url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/sanctification.html]More on Sanctification at Monergism.org HERE![/url]

2 Peter 3:17,18; 2 Thessalonians. 1:3; Colossians 2:19


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Kristy

 2006/12/26 18:04Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:
BB Warfield on entire sanctification.

John Owen on Entire Sacnctification HERE.

More on Sanctification at Monergism.org HERE!



Pretty one sided if you ask me... All those authors believed in 'Indwelling sin' and never believed that they could get free from sin.

They believed the nature of man and his flesh is sin... and that is just not biblical.

Entire Sanctity is a privilege and the responsibility of every believer HERE on this earth...


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Giancarlo

 2006/12/26 18:09Profile





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