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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Ability or Inability?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But the God of the bible clearly, by His grace, gives man the ability to obey what is required of him. If God tells you to do something, He'll give you the grace to do it.



This is true. And we must not lose sight also that we need to be born again of the Spirit. Just because we 'can' don't mean we [i]want to[/i]. And this is where regeneration comes in. When we are born again God makes us a new creature with all the benefits of regeneration.

There is an old story of a little boy that the teacher told to 'SIT DOWN'. The boy kept standing until she threatened him with a switch. The boy then sat down and replied, "Well I may be sitting down, but in my heart I'm still standing up."

The need for regeneration has little to do with what we 'can' or 'can't' do. I believe it has everything to do with what we [i]desire[/i] to do. And no matter how much I may rebuke myself or sweat or whatever I may do to change my desire- I cannot do it. I may obey, but do I do it from my hearts desire or from fear? This is where I have to part company with Finney. He does not appreciate the need for a 'new creature' in the biblical sense. He places the work almost completely in the hands of the sinner.

The sinner can turn to God for a new heart but there is no way a animal can change his own spots. This is why Jesus near rebuked Nicodemas in John 3. We must be born again. This is a new creature and it is the working of the Holy Spirit. Man can only turn to God for the cure. That is the 'work' that we believe...


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/12/21 15:15Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

My pastor says something similar to this:

Christianity is not stopping things you still love, but the things you hate.

Of course he doesn't mean this to be that the end of Christianity is just not doing certain things for whatever the reason may be. But he means this in relation to becoming a Christian ie repentance/born again.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2006/12/21 16:41Profile









 Re: Ability or Inability?

No inability!!

Here is an exact Charles Finney quote from The Promise of The Spirit published by Bethany House 1980. Lecture 11. THE PROMISES--No. 1, page 135.

"We never keep the commandments, only as we take hold of the promises. By this I mean that grace alone enables us from the heart, to obey the commandments of God. It is, therefore, only when we lay hold of the promise, by faith, and receive its fulfillment in ourselves, that we really, in heart, obey the commandments of God. For example we never love the Lord our God, according to the first great commandment, only as we lay hold on, and receive the fulfillment of some such promise as this: "I will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live."
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We can take hold of the promises of God and then receive what we need.
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Exact quote from Finney's Systematic Theology -- 1851 Edition Lecture 50

"It is true indeed that God requires of men, especially under the gospel, what they are unable to do directly in their own strength. Or more strictly speaking, he requires them to lay hold on His strength, or to avail themselves of His grace, as the condition of being what he requires them to be. With strict propriety, it cannot be said that in this, or in any case, he requires directly any more than we are able directly to do. The direct requirement in the case under consideration, is to avail ourselves of, or to lay hold upon his strength. This we have power to do. He requires us to lay hold upon his grace and strength, and thereby to rise to a higher knowledge of Himself, and to a consequent higher state of holiness than would be otherwise possible to us. The direct requirement is to believe, or to lay hold upon his strength, or to receive the Holy Spirit, or Christ, who stands at the door, and knocks, and waits for admission. The indirect requirement is to rise to a degree of knowledge of God, and to spiritual attainments that are impossible to us in our own strength. We have ability to obey the direct command directly, and the indirect command indirectly. That is, we are able by virtue of our nature, together with the proffered grace of the Holy Spirit, to comply with all the requirements of God. So that in fact there is no proper inability about it."

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The grace of the gospel offers you, with every command, the strength to obey, and work in you the very thing commanded. Every command implies a corresponding promise, that is, if we are required to do anything by Christ, the very requirement is an implied promise or offer of all the aid we need to make it possible for us to perform it. Indeed, the command in itself is an implied gift of all needed help. The command itself implies the ability to obey it. Every command of God implies this in the strongest manner. It should be remembered that God is perfect in both love and wisdom: therefore He cannot be so unjust as to demand something from us that is impossible for us to perform. THE GRACE OF GOD TURNS THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW INTO A PROMISE OF GOD.


From Christian Perfection by Asa Mahan

The sinner is not required to "make himself clean," or to "make to himself a new heart," in the exercise of his unaided powers, but by application to the blood of Christ, "which cleanses from all sin." The grace which purifies the heart is provided; the fountain, whose waters cleanse from sin, is set open. To this fountain the sinner is brought, and because he may descend into it, and there "wash his garments and make them white," he can fulfill the command, "Wash you, make you clean," "make to yourself a new heart and a new spirit," and "cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit." The sinner is able to make to himself a "new heart and a new spirit," because he can instantly avail himself of offered grace. He does literally "make to himself a new heart and a new spirit," ONLY when he yields himself up to the influence of that grace. The power to cleanse from sin lies in the blood and grace of Christ; and hence, when the sinner "purifies himself by obeying the truth through the spirit," the glory of his salvation belongs, not to him, but to Christ.

 2006/12/22 9:29









 Re:

That's nice, but what do the scriptures say?

 2006/12/22 10:20









 Re: scriptures

1 Kings 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father.

2 Chronicles 14:2 And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God:

2 Chronicles 24:2 And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Joshua 22:2 And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:

Haggai 1:12 Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD their God, and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the LORD their God had sent him, and the people did fear before the LORD.

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Did Adam or his descendants lose the ability to obey God after Adam's sin?

No!! The Bible tells the story of many people, some who walked with God and did what was pleasing in His sight and others who rebelled against God and did evil in His sight. It would be impossible to rebel or obey without the freedom to do so.

Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

Isaiah 1:19-20 "If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land: but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it." KJV

It would not be possible to obey God if these people did not have this ability.


 2006/12/22 12:08









 Re:

What was it that reconciled you to God?

Your obedience or Christ's?

 2006/12/22 12:19









 Re:

What was it that reconciled you to God?

Your obedience or Christ's?

 2006/12/22 12:20









 Re:

Brother,

You are talking about a time when they did not have Christ. All they had was the Law of Moses and the Prophets. But after the Son of Man rose again the curtain in the temple was torn in two. Then, after Pentecost, the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE in Christ Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death. Hence, a man keeping the whole law--and there is no such man--cannot be justified in the eyes of God. Listen to what Paul wrote to the Galatians: "I do not set aside the grace of God, for [b]if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing![/b]" (Galatians 2:21) Do you have a righteousness of your own? Mine is as filthy rags! "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Amen.


Peace and mercy,
Slavyan

[EDIT] I think brother Robert put it well:

Quote:
The need for regeneration has little to do with what we 'can' or 'can't' do. I believe it has everything to do with what we desire to do. And no matter how much I may rebuke myself or sweat or whatever I may do to change my desire- I cannot do it.

 2006/12/22 12:20
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What was it that reconciled you to God?

Your obedience or Christ's?



This is a good question. Christ's obedience made our redemption possible. It is our response to Him and the revelation of the Gospel that is our part in this matter. The somewhat that we must do is [i]faith[/i] and faith is our right response to the revelation of God's will in what He has established as our responsibility (repentance and faith).


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/12/22 12:38Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Ron's opening podcasts Abraham My Friend deals with this topic quite well. They are only 12 minutes each and are well worth the listen. God wanted friends- not fear driven slaves.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/12/22 12:41Profile





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