| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Dear Jason,
I will humble myself here. Speaking from experience, I can say that it was God alone that brought me where I am today. As Paul writes, "By the grace of God I am what I am..." I have no words to express myself now, but I did read or at worst skim through your article. But this is not about you defending or me attacking your exposition. It is not about my knowledge or intellectual ability at all. It is not about me. If I truly am Christ's and have the mind of Christ, I will know what God has prepared for me. I do not disagree with you. As has been the process for me--as is the Lord's will even--I need to ask Him about everything and not lean on my own understanding, knowing that He rewards those who seek Him for who He is.
After reading you piece, Brother Paris Reidhead's words resound in my heart: "Lord Jesus, I am going to obey you, and love you, and serve you and do what you want me to do as long as I live, even if I go to hell in the end of the road simply because you are worthy to be loved and obeyed and served and I am not trying to make a deal with you." I am not trying to boast here; my only boast can be in the Lord. But those words, however human, somewhat define what God can do in a believer through His Spirit: to change the very desires of one's heart. Every day, I can only thank and praise the Father for His grace, that He has set me apart from the world, and given me assurance as a child of his.
But we are talking about the Bride, the true church of Christ. Here is a post of mine from another SI forum this week:
Quote:
Dear Corey,
Your post has blessed me so much. I have had the same struggle in the past year or so. I didn't see how the churches I went to were different from the world, but I knew no better. It was not until this summer when I went to Bulgaria that I saw what "a demonstration of the spirit and of power" meant. Now, I, just like you, have been discipled by God alone, having only a friend with me--another college student--who knows the Spirit of God. That has been all, our church, the communion of the saints, the gathering of ourselves together. We haven't been to a congregation for weeks!
I just want to tell you, Corey, and to all of you brethren who feel the same way, that you are in a good place to be, in the wilderness. And the Lord is going to work in you, even if the whole world were turned against Him. What matters is that your heart is right before Him, that you seek Him and love HIm with your all, that you lose your life so you can find it--and God will surely reward those who diligently seek Him!
I still do not know--have not received a certain answer from the Lord--about what congregation I should seek, or what Spirit-filled minister will disciple me. One thing I know though: it is said in the Word, "And they shall all be taught by God." I know that all I need is Him. I need to seek Christ first and foremost, and trust Him that He will complete His work in me, knowing also that all things will work for my good, according to His perfect will.
Here is the whole thread if you want to look at it (I encourage you to take a look): [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13824&forum=35#106623]Seeking Pastor/Mentor/Etc.[/url]
I was struggling to find another post I made in response to a brother earlier this week, but this will not change things. I am assured that no institution can pretend to be the Bride, for our hearts have to be circumcised--and only God can search our hearts. But also, the Spirit enables me to recognize others who have and are led the Spirit of God. These are His true sons and daughters. The point being: that we shall indeed suffer no man to teach us, or institution.
I think we are in the same Spirit. If God has taught me one thing this has been to seek Him alone--his Kingdom and His righteousness. No institution or creed or argument will suffice; only the Spirit of the living God within me bearing witness with my spirit. Yet, I still know imperfectly, not as I am known, waiting for the time when I will see Him face to face.
The communion of the Holy Ghost be with you,
Slav |
|  2006/12/23 3:08 | | PJ
Member
Joined: 2003/7/29
Posts: 76
| | Re: | | NOTE: This is not written to convince. To answer the previous question fairly, I feel I need to provide a few details of what I believe. I am not trying to convince or sway the ideas of anyone.
Quote:
PaulWest wrote:
PJ,
According to your beliefs, were men like C.H. Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Mueller, Wesley and Ravenhill servants of darkness and spreaders of lies? Are all the preachers featured here on SermonIndex false?
Paul,
I am going to try to answer your question in a direct way shortly. However, I hope you will tolerate a little bit of foundation before I give this answer. This foundation I am laying is only meant to give you a general idea of where I am coming from. I am sure that it will be full of gaps and open ends. I believe that these gaps and open ends are sealed up in my complete writing if you would like to read it.
When John the Baptist came preaching repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, a great many people heard his message and truly and sincerely repented. By repent, I mean they turned their complete devotion to the Great God of the Universe. Some of these who repented did so because the sincerely realized the greatness of God and the fact that he was truly worthy of their devotion. They sincerely realized that they had been living with a misplaced allegiance and they willingly corrected this when confronted by John. On the other hand, there was another group who repented that did so only because they did not want to receive the wrath of this Great and Mighty God. Even though they did repent and give their allegiance to God, they were only doing so because the did not want to receive his wrath. It was not because they sincerely realized he was worthy of this devotion. When John saw these half hearted men coming to repent, he confronted them...
Matthew 3:7-12 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and the Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
(9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
(10) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(12) Whose fain is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but the will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Here is what I believe John is saying...
I believe that John is telling the less than sincere repenters that Christ will surely accept them and baptize them with the promised Holy Spirit, but just the same, he is also going to baptize them with fire. This baptism in fire is not some additional spiritual blessing, but instead this fire is a reference to testing. Just as silver is refined in a fire to remove all impurities, Christ was going send a fire of his own to test all of those who came to him. Through this fire, the less than sincere believer would be burned up and removed from his kingdom. Just the same, the sincere believers would be proved true and worthy of his kingdom. This idea is further confirmed in verse twelve when he make a reference to Christ holding a fan to separate the wheat from the chaff.
This testing fire would certainly come, however it was still many years away.
Since the day of Pentecost, the day I consider the true birth of the true Church, Church history has been divided into two season. In scripture these seasons are spoken of in terms of either three and one half days, or three and one half years. Together they total seven. Seven is the number that refers to a complete cycle. From the birth of the Church till the end of all things would be one cycle. The number seven has no literal significance in any way, it is only used to show a full cycle or season. Just the same, when the Bible speaks of three and one half (whether it be days or years) this number has no literal significance, it is only used to show a division in the life cycle of the Church. The church would go through two separate seasons before it would come to its glorious climatic end.
Please note, as I write, I am not assuming you agree with any of this. I am only trying to convey what I believe.
The first season would be a season of protection, nourishment, and peace. This first season was the season in which God protected the church from the hand of its true enemy - Satan. We can see the season illustrated in Revelation chapter 12. The woman (the church) was sent away into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God.
For a season of time, God was protecting his newborn baby, the Church. It was during this time that the apostles had a strong and powerful ministry. They nourished and fed Gods child (the Church) during this time. They continually warned everyone to grow up to maturity in the faith. Unfortunately, a great many of these people did not press on to maturity. Eventually, a great many of these people began to grow cold in their hearts toward Christ, the one who was supposed to be their first love. These same people who were gloriously saved from sin, began to look back to it with longing. However, for fear of losing out on heaven, they would not dare consider blatantly rejecting the one who saved them. As God witnessed this coldness of peoples hearts, he prepared to release the enemy to have his way with them and sift them out of his kingdom. However, before doing this, just as he always sent prophets to warn people of coming doom, and to call people back to repentance, he sent Christ with one final call to repent. This call to repentance can be found in Revelation, Chapters two and three.
Unfortunately, few truly repented, and a day finally came when God removed his protecting hand from the Church. At this point, the Church entered into is second season. This season is illustrated in Revelation, Chapter 13. The Beast rose out of the see and had power to continue for three and one half years.
This beast was a spirit of Satan that would come and promote the greatest lie ever. The beast would offer a way of salvation that would allow people to occasionally continue in their sin and still get to heaven. Those who were less than sincere in their motives for following Christ, gladly received this lie. As they receive it, Christ spewed them out of his mouth. They failed the test. The were consumed by the fire. Only the true wheat did not accept this lie. Christ kingdom was now being purged from all the junk.
This testing fire still burns today. The beast is still deceiving all over the earth.
The people who left their first love Christ , in exchange for a lie, were considered harlots. These unfaithful people joined together and began a system of worship that still exist until today. This great harlot institution is described in Revelation as riding on the beast. By saying that the harlot was riding on a beast, the scripture is showing that the harlot institution is empowered and controlled by the beast.
The reason God allows this institution to remain is simply to keep the simple and foolish from entering into his kingdom. With the presence of this institution, it is certain that only the most sincere followers of God and his Son will be able to see past the lies of this false institution and escape from it.
Paul, this is a very brief, and choppy explanation. However, I hope you can get my basic idea. Now on to your question.
Regarding Ravenhill, and all the men we think of when we speak of him.
I do not believe that these men intentionally taught lies. I believe that they sincerely thought they were doing well. However, at the same time, I do believe that they also were deceived by this false institution because of their lack of true faith and devotion towards God. When I think of these men, a certain verse comes to mind.
Proverb 7:26 For she (the strange woman, or harlot woman) hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
This passage is speaking about strong men who were slain by the harlot woman. I am firmly convinced that the harlot woman referred to in the first few chapters of Proverbs is the false church institution. When I think of strong men being slain by this institution, I cant help but think of Ravenhill and the likes of him. These men professed a love for God. However, when it can down to who did there loyalty truly belong to, they gave there loyalty to the traditions and stories passed down within the institutionalized church. If these men would have given their complete devotion to God and his word, instead of the false church, I believe that they too would have reached the same conclusion I have reached today. However, as it is, I unfortunately believe that these men failed the test.
Not only do I believe that these men failed the test, but I also God uses these men to test others. I personally know that they played a roll in my testing.
It was easy for me to see that Kenneth Copeland was a joke (as well as all the other men we put in this category TBN, etc.) However, the only way I was able to see past these other men you spoke of was by putting their books aside and giving my complete devotion to Christ. At a critical point in my life, I put all teaching aside and pledged to give my complete allegiance to Christ and his word. I pledged that I would not go against it no matter who I found my self apposed to. Little did I know at the time that I would eventually find my self opposed to the same men that I once held very dear (Yes, I did hold them dear. You can look up some of my postings from three and a half years ago in which I spoke very highly of Ravenhill).
Many wonder how could this be possible. How could these great men not be of God. To this I will respond with this verse.
Proverbs 5:3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: (4) But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
The devil knows exactly what to say and do to appeal to each and every man. He has organized the false church so that is very appealing. There are many different kinds of foolish and simple people, and a stumbling block exist for each and every one. For some it the prosperity movement, for others its a false miracle. For some its the moving testimony delivered by a missionary from overseas. And for others, it is the seemingly devoted men who speak about prayer and the need for revival in the institutionalized church.
Yes, the devil is smooth. Many people have fallen for his great charade. However, he does none of this strictly by his own will. Though he is arrogant and thinks that he is hurting the kingdom of God, he is foolish and doesnt realize that he is doing the very work of God by removing the chaff from Gods kingdom.
I hope this answered your question,
Sincerely,
PJ
PS. Though I expressed my belief that these men were decieved, please do not confuse this and think that I am casting eternal judgement upon them. Since I believe that the institutionalized church is false, and since I believe that those who are a part of it are deceived, it is only logical that I conclude that these men must have also been deceieved. This conclusion is not based upon any specific character flaws that I think these men may have had, but instead it is based strictly upon the logic I just stated. I have nothing personal against any of these men. But to have spoken anything else than the answer I gave would have not been my true thought. Paul asked for my true thoughts, so I gave them to him. I hope the no one will accuse me of playing judge simply because I answered his question. I am well aware that I am not the final judge. The fate of these men lay in God's hands and I am sure that God will not ask for my opinion before making his judgement. |
| | 2006/12/23 3:28 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
This is not written to convince. To answer the previous question fairly, I feel I need to provide a few details of what I believe. I am not trying to convince or sway the ideas of anyone.
Will not ultimately me trusting you or your persuasion be the same thing as me trusting the church tradition rather than trusting God? Let us all be good Bereans, and seek the wisdom of the Almighty.
In Christ,
Slav |
| | 2006/12/23 3:51 | | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | PJ,
Thank you for answering my question. I feel now that I have a much better grasp on what you believe. I appreciate your candor.
I'm really sorry that you've come to these extremist conclusions, realizing you most likely believe I too am part of this institutionalized "whore" since I worship God in the spiritual tradition of the Puritans and other Bible believing saints throughout the centuries.
As you have chosen to publically disclose your beliefs in this forum, and seek to link up with others of a like mind, I must humbly say that your situation should be a dire warning to us all. It reminds me of the likes of a certain Charles Russell, who, in the mid-1800's broke off from his evangelical faith with similar views and formed a faction, whose remnant, he claimed, always existed secretly, preserved by Jehovah to be faithful witnesses amidst the two-headed Satanic abomination of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism - otherwise known as "Christendom" or "The System".
But I realize you may differentiate yourself from the Russellites in a plethora of ways. Do you hold to anihilism (the anihilation of the wicked into a state of nothingness, eschewing the view that hell is a literal place of conscious torment)? Are you trinitarian? What happens when you meet other believers of your ilk, and your concepts of God, eschatology and Christology do not jibe? You realize, of course, that the moment you construct a formal creed, you will be no different from any of the other denominational components, sects, and cults of the whorish church-system which names Christ as head. Do you therefore believe that God has supernaturally fine-tuned all the true underground saints in your belief system to jibe with the abovementioned theological standpoints, even though you haven't yet met in the flesh?
If I were a fellow adherent of your convictions, I would certainly like to have an understanding of your detailed views regarding baptism, eternal security, the Holy Spirit, etc - unless, of course, you feel that none of that stuff really matters, and is not relevant to God's one true church. As underground believers, are we divinely proscribed from congregating until God brings the current wicked system to a finale? I know you will ask me to read your link, where questions like these are probably answered in full. In that case, I will cut to the chase, and only ask you one thing:
[b]Are only those who hold to [i]your[/i] beliefs truly born again and saved?[/b]
I pray you will be gracious enough to answer this question with the continued candor you have been demonstrating. You never know who is reading this! Someone with your views on faith may be reading this, and waiting to see how you answer, perhaps checking to see if your beliefs on these matters coincide with theirs. And, if for anything else, it gives people like me more of a knowledge of the details of your faith, so as to not make any unfair, hasty presumptions.
Paul
_________________
Paul Frederick West
|
| | 2006/12/23 7:58 | Profile | InTheLight
Member
Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: I'm Searching | | Jason, Has hope died for you? I am reminded of Moses when he struck the rock, "hear now, ye rebels!" Are those in the church no longer the people of God, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and therefore infinitely precious? Have you forgotten the price of their redemption? In casting off your weak brother you shall be estranging yourself from your Redeemer and his.
Has love died also? Again Moses said, "must I fetch you water out of this rock?" He was fed up with them, and they could sink or swim for all he cared just then. But if these things are written for our learning, then they illustrate an important, eternal principle, that we cannot make spiritual progress alone. The links are horizontal as well as vertical. Moses could not detach himself from God's congragation. The shepherd could not come home alone, that would be too easy, he struggles back with the sheep on his shoulders.
In Christ,
Ron
_________________
Ron Halverson
|
| | 2006/12/23 9:07 | Profile | PJ
Member
Joined: 2003/7/29
Posts: 76
| | Re: | | Paul,
From this point on, I will use much caution with what I say. You said that you don't want to reach "unfair, hasty presumptions," and yet you already have.
By comparing me to the man you spoke of, was quite umfair. Howeveer, it it not the first time I have been compared to an obvious cult. You make an ansumption, as everyone else does, that simply because I am in a minority, then I must be wrong. I'm sorry, this logic does not work for me. I am only wrong if I am wrong. That fact that a great majority believe a lie, does not make that lie a truth. No, it is only truth if it is truth. Yes, I am a most extreme minority, but this does not shake me, because I believe that what I believe is the truth.
You spoke of my link as if you have no intention of reading it. Why is this? I'm sure you are very busy, however, I would find it a great honor if you would take the time to do so. I would then apprectiate a complete rebuttal that is based upon scripture. Please do not include any human logic, church tradition, or human testimony. Instead, let scripture be you only tool to rebuke me. If I am so obviousoly off my rocker, than it would be a very simple matter to pick apart all that I believe.
To tempt me to answer questions with such brevity, is unfair. I spent many hours defining all I believe. Making brief statement or explanations on this sight is sure to only set me up to be the recipient of many febukes. However, even with this in mind, I will attempt to answer your final question.
Quote:
PaulWest wrote:
PJ,
[b]Are only those who hold to [i]your[/i] beliefs truly born again and saved?[/b]
I pray you will be gracious enough to answer this question...
Paul
Paul, what I believe is not a doctrinal statement that I believe someone can acknowledge and be saved. However, I am very convinced that all who are truly saved will reach this conclusion. Knowing these facts will not lead someone to salvation, however, a trully saved person will reach these same conclusions.
My goal in posting was not to attract a following. Nor do I want to establish any form of organized system for those who know these secrets. No. I only posted because I am very, very eager to speak with another as myself. As you can see, I and my family are very much on our own. I would be the most incredible thing in the world to just speak with one of those who we consiider a brother.
The last thing in the world I want is for a multitude of bitter people to come and try to associate themselves with me only because they are bitter at the institutionalized church.
While it appears that you have already formed your own oppinions about me, I can assure you that the only thing I want is a chance to simply speak with another as my self.
From this point on, I will be most careful with what I say.
PJ |
| | 2006/12/23 10:43 | Profile | PJ
Member
Joined: 2003/7/29
Posts: 76
| | Re: | | Dear Sermon Index Readers,
After posting my last post, I began to feel that mayby I was crossing the line of trying to defend my self. For this I am sorry. I had no intentions of ever defending myself. This forum belongs to people who hold the established church institution dear. I should expect and accept the fact that my ideas would be oppossed. I have no right to try to justify myself in this place. If I have done this in any way I am sorry.
Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to make the original post. If you ever come accross someone with similar beiefs as myself, even though you highly disagree with them, would you be kind enough to send them my way.
You are welcome to send me a private message if you have any sincere question about what I have written. However, apart from that, I will try to remain quiet regarding my beliefs.
Thank you for your patience,
Sincerely,
PJ |
| | 2006/12/23 11:12 | Profile |
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