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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
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Charlotte, NC

 Tongues, Initial Physical Evidence?

So, is tongues the initial physical evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Are there other manifestations that can occur besides tongues?


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Jimmy H

 2004/2/20 11:29Profile
philologos
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 Re: Tongues, Initial Physical Evidence?

1. No
2. Yes

would you like a longer answer? ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/20 13:27Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Sure, a longer answer would good. I say tongues can be, but is not always the "initial physical evidence." I would say the Scriptures surely make room for any prophetic utterance (tongues, prophecy, song/praise), especially considering the nature of the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy. I might would go far as to say any gift that is manifest is evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Btw, I ask this because I'm writing a paper about the initial evidence for my Doctrine of the Holy Spirit class. So far, everybody in the school save for one or two others (none of which are in my class) seems to say dogmatically, tongues is the initial physical evidence, every time.


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Jimmy H

 2004/2/20 16:28Profile
moreofHim
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 Re:

I can say from experience that tongues is NOT the only evidence. I have been prayed for- up and down, all around, knocked down :-D , etc... and no sign of tongues. Yet, I can feel the Holy Spirit's presence when it is heavier than normal. Other people have been around me and said that they feel the Holy Spirit very strong around me- yet I feel nothing different.

What I do feel many times is a heavy pressure on my forehead and my eyelids flutter if I try to keep them closed. Many times I tremble or shake if I am talking to someone seriously about the Lord. Now I know why they were called Quakers or Shakers. :-D

To quote Oswald Chambers- the evidence is "character". If we have the Holy Spirit- we have the power to be changed- to walk in righteousness.

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/2/20 16:56Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
So, is tongues the initial physical evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Are there other manifestations that can occur besides tongues?


Before you can claim that scripture teaches about an 'initial' evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, you will have to ask yourself is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit a different event then the regeneration (salvation) of an individual. As for the evidence of being filled with the spirit? I tend to look at this scripture quite abit now rather than more outward signs:
[b]Ephesians 3:19[/b] - and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

It's an inner revelation of the truth of the gospel that fills (baptizes) us with Gods Spirit. The Cross is the power of the Gospel. Let us cast our eyes on Jesus.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/2/20 17:01Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Hi ptc
An old friend of mine went to be with the Lord last years, just a couple of days after his 90th birthday. He wrote a leaflet on this topic which might be usueful in your studies. His style sometimes has long sentences but there is usually gold in what he wrote.

This link will take you to a page of pdfs, scroll down until you find one called Initial Evidence and see what you think.

The classic 'proof' texts are in Acts 10 with Cornelius, but we can return to this later. When is your assignment due?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/20 22:37Profile
KingJimmy
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Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Before you can claim that scripture teaches about an 'initial' evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, you will have to ask yourself is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit a different event then the regeneration (salvation) of an individual.



Yes, this paper will presume that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event to regeneration that occurs through the indwelling, though, sometimes such folks might get "the entire package" all at once. But even if they did, there would be some "initial physical evidence" that they received the Spirit.


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Jimmy H

 2004/2/21 1:47Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Quote:

This link will take you to a page of pdfs, scroll down until you find one called Initial Evidence and see what you think.



Thanks, I'll be sure to look into it.

Quote:

When is your assignment due?



March 23

I find all this an interesting topic, and have personally been unable to find very many books that actually cover the topic in depth. Most books I've come across pretty much treat the topic very lightly. It's a lot like the books on Dispensationalism that I read, where the only two options are Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. Other views are simply treated as not really optional. In Pentecostal books, initial evidence is treated as simply tongues or nothing. Though I did read in a book by Jack Hayford recently where he doubts that tongues is always the initial physical evidence, though, he doesn't really dive into why he believes such from the Scriptures.


I've only been able to find one book that is simply dedicated to the topic, called "Initial Evidence", Edited by Gary B. McGee. I'm still reading the book, but basically several contributors examine the historical views regarding initial evidence, and then there are a few contemporary articles, written by Pentecostals and non-pentecostals alike.


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Jimmy H

 2004/2/21 1:58Profile
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 Re:

A difficult subject for anyone to say for sure I think. One thing that I found interesting is that in a book by Leonard Ravenhill I read, Len said something like nobody can show from scripture that speaking in tongues is the intial evidence and nobody can show from the scripture that it isn't.

If you want the exact quote and book I will have to find it.

Mike


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Mike

 2004/2/21 5:29Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Quote:

A difficult subject for anyone to say for sure I think. One thing that I found interesting is that in a book by Leonard Ravenhill I read, Len said something like nobody can show from scripture that speaking in tongues is the intial evidence and nobody can show from the scripture that it isn't.



Indeed, I think I'd have to agree with Ravenhill there, and am familiar with the quote.

The ramifications of saying that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit forces one to conclude that for most Christian history, all the major movements of God throughout the ages, where mighty men of God did amazing things, did not really have the power of the Holy Spirit, and did not really have the gfits of the Spirit.

So, great preachers such as Wesley, Whitefiled, Booth, Spurgeon, Moody, etc, none of them in classical Pentecostal theology could be properly said to have power from on high, because they did not speak in tongues. For many Pentecostals, an individual cannot operate in the gifts of the Spirit without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. As, the baptism of the Holy Spirit empowers a believer for ministry.

While I agree with the latter conclusion, I cannot agree with the former. I believe such men as Booth, Wesley, etc did have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. How else could you explain their great success as preachers, converting throngs of people as they did. How else could you explain why people flocked to them in the thousands to hear them preach? If they were simply being carnal orators, I seriously doubt they would've been able to have such success. These men understood what it was to speak with the "unction" of the Spirit, with power from on high.


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Jimmy H

 2004/2/21 6:25Profile





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