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Discussion Forum : General Topics : About at my wits end here.

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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3165
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

Santana wrote:
It's not going to be easy brother. Pray without ceasing.

(PS - this is not scriptural but just my own opinion)



Yes "at the moment" this appears to be a no win situation for either of us, but I know God already knows the outcome, In this old clay body it sure is hard at times like these and I have to admit my heart is hurting, but God won't let that last long I don't think before he speaks to my daughter about her attitude and I am believing she "will" have a change of heart. I have a buddy that has never wanted kids he is now 59 and very lonely, so I don't know which is better, to have or not to have, but my kids have strengthened my relationship with the Lord, and they have really been a Blessing to my whole life and at 55 I would still have another one if my wife was able this is how much we Love kids, is there something wrong with us? or is the normal for a child of God to think like?


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2006/12/11 23:28Profile









 Dear Brother Bill

there were two things you said that stuck in my soul:

Quote:
she gets no child support she is in the Church now she Loves the Lord and also a Prayer partner at Church she has been forgiven and she is trying to live right now and do right



That is huge, the fact that she has embraced Jesus, and is a prayer partner in the church.

It's also huge that she recieves no child suppport from the children's father, this is just grievous for her (and you). She has three children, and 36k doesnt go far these days. Not only that, being a single parent is a huge burden, spiritually, psychologically and financially. Children need two parents and think of this; your dear daughter must experience great loneliness, because there are very few men, and even fewer God fearing men, who are single, available and willing to marry a woman with three children, not their own blood. May she learn to lean on Jesus for this comfort.

my humble advice precious brother; just you and her, alone, ask if you two can pray together, and then tell her that God wants the WHOLE family together for the celebration of the Saviours birthday. Be upright and say, that money is tight, but children love to have a few presents to open, and establish, togther what might be good gifts for them to recieve, and eastablish a strict budget for this. But then if you got to, in the leading of the Lord, get up in her face, and say to her, "don't do this again, don't tear the family apart over gifts and money, know that I love you and those precious children, but the reality is, we have a finite sum of money, and that money we will be put to giving them sweet gifts, we will sit by the tree, unwrap them, share sweet family time, enjoy a holiday meal together, but don't ever think that I don't love you and treasure you, because my purse is limited. Let her know that this is the aim of the enemy to tear families apart over such temporal and earthly things such as money and "gifts". Let her know that the true gift is the family that Christ has molded together with you precious people.

Please forgive my audacity as to give you, an older man, my "advice", as I am a broken vessel, flawed and cracked. But I know this, money and needy family members can be a toxic brew, you have to be straight and firm, but the little ones do so love to recieve presents on Christmas.

so let me reiterate, first prayer between you two, knitting you both in the Spirit, than a sober discussion on budgeting and gifts for the children, then YOU and her go to the stores and buy the gifts. You buy the gifts with her, together, father and daughter, but none of your money should touch her hands....does this mean that she cannot put "from Mom" on the gifts?

no.

Bill, if you so desire, dont hesitate to PM me so we can speak in private

In Jesus love, neil

 2006/12/12 2:19
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3165
Texas

 Re: Dear Brother Bill

Quote:

bartle wrote:
Please forgive my audacity as to give you, an older man, my "advice", as I am a broken vessel, flawed and cracked. But I know this, money and needy family members can be a toxic brew, you have to be straight and firm, but the little ones do so love to recieve presents on Christmas.
In Jesus love, neil



As for as I know God can and will use anyone, age is irrelevant to God. "money and needy family members can be a toxic brew", your sure hit the nail square on the head here I have personally found this out. I guess sometimes you can compare giving money to someone for a long time like giving drugs to a drug head, he will mow you yard,wash your car, clean your house as long as you keep the drugs coming but cut them off and now there ready to kill you.

I don't feel as if my daughter wants to kill me but to me with her actions, I feel as though she may as well have said it. You know bottom line it's my fault for ever getting this all started giving her money, but what is a family member supposed to do when someone's hungry like she was when I first started helping many years ago, but when she got a her feet a little I should have cut her off but I did not, it got to be a habit and I never looked at it as being a bad habit but looking back now I think it was.

I told her this morning that I have laid this at the Cross, that is all I know how to do with something this sensitive because I sure can't think of anything better to do, that will give all of us a better peace within, we all just need to let go and let God, was my advise to her and hopefully she will see it that way also.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2006/12/12 13:56Profile









 Re: At my wits' end here


Hi Bill,

I thought bartle's advice was excellent and practical, and doesn't compromise your debt or what your daughter owes you.

Quote:
so let me reiterate, first prayer between you two, knitting you both in the Spirit, than a sober discussion on budgeting and gifts for the children, then YOU and her go to the stores and buy the gifts. You buy the gifts with her, together, father and daughter, but none of your money should touch her hands....does this mean that she cannot put "from Mom" on the gifts?

no.

I know that my father would not have gone into debt over my financial need when I was a lone parent. He would let me [i]and[/i] my children go without, knowing we were not actually starving, or completely without creativity to manage with what we have.

Through this, I learned to work with my children to explain to them my limited budget and give them limited choices. Maybe your grandchildren are old enough to be introduced to this fact of their lives?

 2006/12/13 9:25
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re: About at my wits end here.

Mr. Bill, really appreciate the post! Thanks for your transparency and desire for council! After thinking about this I found scriptures for both sides.

Scripture for stopping the funds:
Rev 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Scripture for keeping it up:
Luke 6:30, 34-35 "Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again...And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."

Either way:
Gal. 6:9 "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."

Hope that doesn't coufound things for you. I'd have to say that I agree with other posts. I know this isn't conforting, but you didn't get your daughter into the situation she is in. I applaud you for helping her, but it sounds like she is really taking advantage of you. To charge $2000 on a card is very excessive. I'm not sure I've ever had a balance come close to that. Also, for my NEEDS it wouldn't take anywhere near that figure to pay for it. It's lots easier to spend money you didn't earn! Or should I say blow money you didn't earn. I really don't know the situation, and am not trying to slander your daughter.

Again, I applaud you for helping, but it doesn't sound like she's really that much in need. I reject the idea that you can't live on $36,000 a year. Yes, you can. I take home about the same amount and my wife stays home and schools our 4 children (among other things). I am currently paying loads of money on my mortgage, which I'll have payed off in the spring (Lord willing). It took 7 years to pay it off. Upon that I am remodeling my home and have spend a load on that. I have the same bills as everyone else and still have the ability to save, and all that on what your daughter makes. In the western world, we think we need so many things to live, when in reality, we don't! Our appetites make us a slave, and we become a servant or bondsman to our things, wants and desires. I believe this is why Jesus gave such hard advice to the rich young ruler--his money was an idol and security. So, I believe there is definitely blessing in going without (our wants that is).

Thanks again for the post and may our Lord bless you with guidance in this time of difficulty and conflict!


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/12/15 13:26Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7428
Mississippi

 Re:

NLONG wrote:

Quote:
I reject the idea that you can't live on $36,000 a year. Yes, you can. I take home about the same amount and my wife stays home and schools our 4 children (among other things). I am currently paying loads of money on my mortgage, which I'll have payed off in the spring (Lord willing). It took 7 years to pay it off.



Wow! If you accomplished this living there in Elkhart Co., IN that is quite some accomplishment!

Good for you!

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/12/15 18:18Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Lean not

Will likely ruffle a few more brows here but want to lift up something from someone here who I do not always agree with;

Quote:
Anyone's advise to you will be from human reasoning at best, regardless of their knowledge of the scripture though it may be based solely upon sripture. However, I believe there comes a time in everyones life when things truly "go south" that the question must be asked: What would Jesus do --- fix the temporal at the expense of the eternal?

Would God have you interfere with what He may be trying accomplish, if indeed that is what He is tryng to do? --- and I always believe that is the case.

May God give you His wisdom and strength in this,



Two points. One, that disagreeing need not be on the personal level and that is the primary problem that gets us all out of sorts.

Secondly, that this statement is well worth truly pondering; "Would God have you interfere ..." ?

Bill, an example of this has sat entrenched for a long while now from Oswald Chambers. It hit's home by way of similarity to your situation with it's comparisons but stops short of injecting particulars. For what it is worth, it is in opposition to a great deal of this counsel given here and often strikes me deeply because it is in opposition to what "I think" ought to be done just as well;

[i]Chambers possessed a rare capacity to trust matters to God in prayer and wait for Him to move. When one student informed Chambers that the couple hired to cook and clean were stealing supplies, he decided not to confront them, but to ask God to convict them.

The loss of food and linens continued for several weeks until one day the man came to Chambers, deeply guilty and sorrowful, to confess his thefts. “I’ve known about it all along,” Oswald told him, “but we wanted to wait until God’s Spirit spoke to you.” The man was astounded, and both he and his wife came to a personal faith in Jesus Christ.

In another case, Chambers might have acted differently. He often said, “You cannot tie God down to a particular line. Get to know how God deals with you and how he deals with others through you in the most practical way.”[/i]

Oswald Chambers
[i]Abandoned to God.[/i]

Brother, you would be astounded if I told you some of things in the financial realm that would make me quite the fool in the eyes of some of this counsel.

We can have a measured outcome with our practical applications and natural wisdom that outright denies just plain obedience. Ormly touched on it succinctly, Chambers as well. The possibility exists that the extreme opposite may be what is necessary .. a lavishing on the order of Mary in John 12:3. Or the seemingly opposing viewpoint derived from,

Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

I am sorry, this matter of presuming and measuring outcome is still bothersome and is eking out all over the place. Something of a twisted gnosis that has penetrated and caused us to do that which is the exact opposite of;

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Even the possibilities mentioned above are but worthless if not put under this scrutiny.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/12/16 9:17Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
the couple hired to cook and clean were stealing supplies, he decided not to confront them, but to ask God to convict them.


It was wise to present this side of the coin - lest anyone be too hasty in dispensing a "prescription". This incident that Chambers recalls certainly complies with Scripture: "If someone takes your coat, give him your other one."

Quote:
lean not unto thine own understanding.


Of cource God sees this entire father/daughter/ex/children issue in a different light than those who are in the middle of it (or on the outside). That would make him the best advisor, wouldn't it?

We cannot deny the fact that the Bible has a lot to say or infer, also, about chronic financial dependencies. There is a place for it and a place not for it. God has given us some helpful instruction for avoiding the formation of a welfare mindset. (I believe this was a factor in the fall of the Roman Empire.)


In our socialistic society many are dependent of the government, and that mindset has leaked into other institutions - like family. It sure doesn't do much for faith and maturity. Nor is it always healthy for relationships. And once firmly established, it is hard to break free from.

While it may seem better to go along with this, and hope that the dependent child will "see the light", God just might, at some point, have something else in mind - for the sake of spiriutal growth. And where HE directs, he will also enable.

Bill, it is most reassuring to know that you desire to follow the guidance of your Master.

You probably are already familiar with the Christian book:

Boundaries
When to say YES
When to say NO, by Cloud/Townsend.

The general theme of the book is about ownership - knowing where we begin and another person ends. We must not be owned by another human being, and must be set free so that we can belong first and formost to the Lord. Only then are we all free to take personal responsibility for our choices. Those choices will also be the best for those we love - in the long run.

I believe that the apostle Paul is a good example. "Though I am free, and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone to win as many as possible." 1 Cor. 9:19 Paul was not owned by any man, yet he submitted for THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM.

Jesus never let others control him. Yet he WILLINGLY chose to lay down his life FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM (not man's selfish desire). There is a big difference. Learning how to live in this kind of freedom is just where God aims to lead us.

You may be at your wits end, but I suspect that you are at the beginning of a very exciting adventure with God. Go for it, brother!


Diane






_________________
Diane

 2006/12/16 10:17Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3165
Texas

 Re:

All you guys have been so wonderful in your responses and believe me everyone's help is so precious to me, it's been a really hard week for me Daughter hasn't even called me I had to pick up the phone last night when I got in from work just to call and talk to my Grand daughter just to see what was going on, my grand daughter told me the my daughter was at Church "on a Friday night?" I did not understand but it was none of my business.

I know what is going on she used to come over Preaching to her Mom and I and sometimes telling us there were some changes we needed to make with her Two Brothers Chris and Daniel like keep Chris off the computer less TV and more of this and that, maybe she needs to be preaching into the mirror. Isn't it really crazy how someone as strong as my daughter is supposed to be in her faith and how close she say's she is to God now and how she is so involved in the Church and she is doing her Dad this way, I wonder if she is telling anyone about her faults?

I Love my daughter and I am hurt so if I say something here that might be a little out of line I am sorry maybe just venting a little also, and this is probably not really Christ like on my part I am sorry. I "will" get over this with time just like a bruise it takes time to heal. I will heal but this healing period is hard and I know there is a lesson here for me and I know God has a message here for me and he will help me, but I can tell you right now at this very moment I feel like a lost sheep and very sad, I don't handle this stuff very well "I don't know how many Dads would" but we all have our weaknesses even us Christians.

I want all of you to know I am not looking for opinions or advise that I might want to hear to make me feel better or justify my actions and you all have been so well with yours, thanks so very much! this did not come to stay it came to pass, and pass it will but I just must learn like someone said earlier no to lean on my own understanding or I will be nuts in a week, I must learn to trust God here and try my best to place this "totally" in his hands.
Thanks Guys.
Mr. Bill


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2006/12/16 12:18Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7428
Mississippi

 Re:

Bill,

I have been reading this thread...my heart goes out to you...wanting to do the right thing and not knowing what that is but wishing someone could just tell you....then the problem is how can I tell this is the right thing? Is it when it resonates with my spirit? Likely, but there are emotions involved which do get in the way at times. How do I know? We, too, have children who are faithful to God and those who are doing it their own way....

All I can say is that God will allow us to experience these vexing thigs to teach us more on how to pull back and allow Him to do the work and not us play GOD. Will we ever learn to not do this? How can I tell when I am trying to play God? And we do not want to interfere in the process of God's working in the life of the child. THIS is what scares me! Really! How often do our well-meaning actions actually interfere in this process? I am learning to say what needs to be said and then pull back and not argue the point...this is very contrary to my natural nature. So, God is using this to help change me from glory to glory....a trying process to say the least.

A story: when son #2 was causing us a lot of grief by his rebellion, I questioned deeply where we had gone wrong in our teaching. The conventional wisdom was that if you taught your child well, have his faith in you, then when he comes to the age of accountability, he will then transfer this faith to God. One day as I was deeply grieved in my spirit and questioning myself and God, God spoke to me, so loud and clear. I was standing in front of my clothes washer, tending to it...God said "You let me be God and you be mom!" Brother, this comforted me so much! YES! I can and will be mom and will back off from trying to be God! Now this does not mean I will relinquish my concern and voice these to my son, but the intense pressure to conform will not be there. That is God's job. PTL! In the meantime, I will continue my interest in his welfare and keep pleading with God to hurry up!:-x

Blessings to you and your family....

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/12/18 11:05Profile





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