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GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Why would man want to argue against tongues? Jealousy? Maybe?

Thats pretty funny. No I'm not jealous- as a matter of fact I'm really good thanks. :) lol. The bible says to renew my mind and reason... not put it on the shelf. Speaking in an unknown "language" wouldn't cause any edification. 1 Corinthians 14:26, "Let all things be done for edification."

1 Corinthians 14:15
"What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

Its better off for most not to be caught up in this charismatic stuff. Its really sad to see the leaders of this charismatic group people like TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers, even Peter Popoff. The world would be better off without thier doctrines. These big leaders are heretics.

By the way the doctrine of the "second blessing" would include the idea of carnal christianity wouldn't it? I'm just curious as to what you guys think about these things.


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Kristy

 2006/12/12 15:11Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

from gracealone

Quote:
The bible says to renew my mind and reason... not put it on the shelf. Speaking in an unknown "language" wouldn't cause any edification.



1co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown TONGUE edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

clearly a lack of knowledge



also,

1co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown TONGUE speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This is proof that there is a difference between the gift of tongues which is one of the gifts of the spirit (tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, healing, faith, miracles, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discerning of evil spirits) and the personal prayer tongues a believer receives when he is baptized in the Holy Ghost. The gift of tongues is a heavenly language, if it was not, why would there need to be a supernatural gift of interpretation??? And when he speaks in this heavenly language "no man understandeth him." When a believer ues the gift of tongues, God is speaking to the church in a heavenly language through a believer. Because the message God gives is in a heavenly language, there must also be a gift of interpretation to translate the message from God.

When a believer uses their personal prayer tongues, which every believer who is baptized in the Holy Ghost receives, they are speaking to God. Not to men. They don't understand it, and those around them don't understand it. But they don't need to understand it, because the Holy Spirit prays through them to God the Father. This is where the believer himself or herself is edified by their tongues. When a message in tongues is given to a church body and one interprets the message in tongues, the whole body is edified.

This is why the scriptures on tongues seem to contradict each other on what tongues are all about. Its because their is the gift of tongues, and the personal prayer tongues a believer receives when they are baptized in the Holy Ghost. Have you never spoken in tongues, then you've never been baptized in the Holy Ghost. Look at all the times the believers in the book of acts recieve the baptism in the Holy Ghost, what evidence is there that accompanies it? Tongues, and there is not always an interpretation, and there is not always foreigners of another language around to be edified. Thats because they are edifying themselves.

This is proof that your theory on tongues only being spoken to be a sign to those of another language is false, because this says that the believer is not speaking to men, but to God and no man understandeth him.

Clearly the answers are in the bible. You just have to be led to find them :) Praise His name. Jesus Christ


Who art thou Lord? It is me the Holy Spirit, whom thou persecutest!


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Matt Chenier

 2006/12/12 18:43Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

Gracealone, you twist a make the scriptures say what you believe. You don't let the scriptures twist and make you believe. Submit to the Truth.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/12/12 18:51Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Where in God's name is there a personal prayer tongue in the scriptures. What benefit would could this possibly have. It says when you pray, pray with understanding. Paul says he would rather pray a few words with understanding rather than 10,000 that no one understands, even the one making the noises. Paul is not making it ok to pray in an unknown tongue or heavenly language that no one understands, he is saying a person could spend 45 minutes speaking something without understanding and would be Better of if he only spoke 2 or 3 with understanding.

Where does it say you get this heavenly blessing when you receive the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Holy Spirit reveals truth about Jesus Christ and who He is in us. Not something that no one understands. John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Comforter, Teacher: From the Father by the prayer of Jesus Christ. John 14:19-21 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus Christ will manifest Himself to us and the Holy Spirit will teach us who He is by the renewing of our minds. John 14:22-27 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Renew our minds to the truth and speak truth to each other and all that the Father would send that they might be saved. Not speak in what ever you call it, and no one understand. I cannot speak to a Russian without an Interpreter that speaks Russian and English. How can anyone possible miss this as the statement on tongues.

John 15:15-16 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

How do we give it to others? John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.

This is our inheritance in Christ Jesus which God planned from the before the beginning of time on this earth. Read and Understand.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/12/12 20:00Profile
mamaluk
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Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re: Let charity rule

Quote:
you twist a make the scriptures say what you believe. You don't let the scriptures twist and make you believe.[i] Submit to the Truth.[/i]



This carries a lot of 'authority', doesn't it?


Does one grasp or understand ALL the Truth in one's lifetime? If so, does one live out ALL the Truth all the time?

When we read,
[color=0000CC]1 Corinthians 13:8-10

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/color]

Is this Truth applicable to us?



[color=0000CC] Philippians 3:8

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of [b]all[/b] things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,[/color]

All things? Even gifts?

Let's do submit to the Truth, to the only Truth: Christ and His love, grace, and humility.. let's do!


 2006/12/12 21:15Profile
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

In context with the next verse...
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
Ding, Ding, Ding, Winner!!!
I agree 100 percent. Paul says I am not going to just pray with tongues. I would agree if someone only prayed in tongues it would seem totally unbalanced. So, If he just prayed in unknown tongues, his understanding would be unfruitful. Paul goes on to say, what am I going to do about this? Well, he is not just going to pray in tongues; he is going to pray in his known tongue also that his understanding will be fruitful. HE IS GOING TO BE BALANCED.
1. If he speaks out in tongues; it needs to be spoken out with interpretation.
2. If he prays in tongues; he with also pray in his known tongue.
3. If he sings in the spirit; he will also sing in his known tongue.
Why would man want to speak in an unknown tongue? Pride? Ya think?
Did you ever think maybe because it is biblical?
Why would man want to argue against tongues? Jealousy? Maybe?
Did you ever think maybe they are just standing for what they believe?
Speaking in an unknown "language" wouldn't cause any edification.
1 Corinthians 14:6 6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, EXCEPT I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
Sometimes it is what follows the tongues that brings tremendous edification.
Caught up follwing Benny Honn, TD Jake or Joe Meyer whoever?? I do not like to talk about Benny Honn and all those other guys. I know Paul, Peter, John, James do you know what Iam saying.
I definitly belive that Christians can be carnal.
Yes I belive that there are dynamic infillings after being saved. There are all kinds of Scripture to back this. Yet, let me give you one thought that might shed light. Ephesians 5:18 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; These that Paul are speaking to are told to be filled with the Holy Spirit, they are already saved, but they can still not be filled with the Spirt by not doing what they are told to do, and doing what they are told not to do,

Would you agree? If this is a qustion to bring up Calvinistic doctrines, go ahead I’m probably more Calvanistic than you.
God Bless, Josh


_________________
JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/13 0:21Profile
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

GRACEALONE,

Can you share your view on Second blessing doctrine, or if some people have dynamic infillings of the Holy Spirit after being saved. Like in, (Acts 4:31 they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.) ECT.

I hope we can discuss this without everyone saying, “Jesus is more important”.
I am sure we would both agree JESUS IS MORE IMPORTANT...

Galatians 2:20 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

God Bless,
Evangelist


_________________
JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/13 0:22Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

In the early church, the apostles saw to it that all of the members received the baptism in the holy spirit. And they would speak with tongues when they received the baptism in the holy spirit, read acts and the times people were baptized in the holy spirit if you don't believe.

If you think there is no difference between the gift of tongues and personal prayer tongues, then why does paul say..

1co 12:30 Have * all the gifts of healing? do all speak * with tongues? do all interpret ?

This shows that not all people speak in these tongues. But in the acts, whenever people were baptized in the holy ghost they spoke in tongues.

So, there must be 2 separate "tongues" that paul is talking about. because when paul said, do all speak with tongues, he was talking about the gift of tongues. But when 120 people spoke with tongues at pentecost and several other times entire groups and churches would receive tongues with the baptism in the holy ghost, how could you say that these are not two separate "tongues" that paul is speaking about.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/12/13 1:25Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
1co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown TONGUE edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. clearly a lack of knowledge

Please don't assume without understanding. See why I know that he is not saying that this is not what you should do.

Listen to Paul on the matter: 1 cor 14
"13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

How then- if toungues are for believers would Paul say this?
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;


Quote:
I agree 100 percent. Paul says I am not going to just pray with tongues. I would agree if someone only prayed in tongues it would seem totally unbalanced. So, If he just prayed in unknown tongues, his understanding would be unfruitful. Paul goes on to say, what am I going to do about this? Well, he is not just going to pray in tongues; he is going to pray in his known tongue also that his understanding will be fruitful. HE IS GOING TO BE BALANCED.



1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Thats not what he said his conclusion was. The point is here that He is going to speak and pray in only a known language. That was the conclusion- if it was a balance between speaking in an "unknown language" and a real language- then he would have said so.


Ephesians 5:18
"18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"

Read John MacArthur on the subject of Eph 5:18:

And the contrast in that verse, as you see it there, "Do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit," it's quite dramatic and remarkable contrast. If you just pick up the book of Ephesians and read that, you might stop and say, "Well why in the world would he contrast drunkenness with being filled with the Spirit? What is the point here? When a person is drunk, they've lost control of themselves and they wander around in an out of control kind of behavior. Is he saying I want you to be out of control but not by wine but by the Holy Spirit? What is he saying here? I want you to yield up the control of your faculties to the Holy Spirit rather than to wine? Why make such a comparison?

Well the answer is found in a bit of the historical context. Let me give you a little bit of background. Ephesus, of course, was in Asia Minor and was dominated by Hellenistic or Greek culture called Hellenistic from the Greek word hellene which means Gentiles. But the Greeks believed that the great god Zeus, they, of course, had a pantheon of gods and Zeus was one of the formidable ones, they believed that the great god Zeus had given birth to a son. And that it had occurred in a very unusual way. And I'll give you a little of the background. They believed that the child was snatched from the womb of its mother, and its mother's name in Greek mythology is Semele. And the child was snatched from the womb of Semele while Semele was being incinerated because she got too close to the burning glory of Zeus. I don't know how Zeus produced this child in her in the mythology but in some way he did it without destroying her but when she sought to get too close to him, she became incinerated and in order to preserve the child of Zeus, the child was snatched out of her womb during her incineration. The child-god who had not yet come to full term was then sown into the thigh of Zeus and kept there until time to be born. That stretches your imagination.

So here is Zeus with this fetus in some point of formation sewn into his thigh. The infant god destined by Zeus to be the world ruler was born eventually out of the thigh of Zeus and then kidnapped by the envious Titans. Titans were called in Greek mythology sons of earth. They took the child, the Titans did, this child of Zeus, tore the child limb from limb, cooked it and ate it. But Zeus found the heart, according to the mythology, revived it and it was reborn as Dionysius. Now if you ever study Greek mythology you come across the name Dionysius quite frequently. Zeus found the heart, swallowed it and eventually the heart formed into the personality of Dionysius and was reborn.

Zeus then blasted the Titans with lightning, incinerating all of them from whom...whose ashes all of humanity came. So that's their creation story. Dionysius was then really someone beyond humanity because all of humanity just rose out of the ashes of the Titans and Dionysius along with Zeus was a god.

Dionysius then, according to Greek mythology, spawned a religion, a religion of ecstasy, ectasia(?) and emotionalism. And the Dionysian cult, this religion of ecstasy and emotionalism, this frenzied kind of religion, saturated the Greek and Roman world. The Dionysian cult was a debauched form of worship and a popular, a dominant form.

The worshipers committed atrocities with human organs. They engaged in orgies of sexual perversion, along with music and dancing and feasting. But there was one common element to all of the Dionysian debacle and that was drunkenness...drunkenness. In fact, if you ever circulate in the Middle East or in the ancient Roman world, you will see Dionysius associated with grapes. When there is a statue or a tribute to Dionysius, some monument to Dionysius, it is always marked out by clusters of grapes because he became known as the god of wine.

The Greek name of Dionysius became in the Roman language, Latin, Bacchus. And Bacchus is the Roman god of wine. When people engaged in these unbelievable drunken brawls, they were called Bacchanalian feasts. And if you've studied any of that, that's a familiar term even today. Take your dictionary out and look up Bacchanalia and it will say a drunken orgy.

The key element then, the key element in pagan worship was drunkenness. That's how...that's how they got their inhibitions out. That's how they dealt with their normal restraint. That's how they dealt with normal feelings of guilt. That's how they dulled their senses sufficiently to quiet their conscience. That's how they dispelled their anxiety and fear and guilt over such vile behavior as they engaged in. That's how they induced a kind of giddiness that substituted for real joy and just catapulted them in to this kind of horrible behavior. They did it by getting drunk and losing all their inhibitions.

So they believed that drunkenness was simply the door into ecstasy, the door into religious expression. And at such drunkenness elevated the believer, the worshiper, to total communion with the deities. So drunkenness was the key to worship, to communion to the deities. The more inebriated they were the more likely they were to get in to the ectasia(?) and enthusiasmos(?), two Greek words, ecstasy and enthusiasm, that spoke about these horrifying often demonic kind of activities.

Now go back to verse 18, it takes on different meaning in the light of that context. He is saying to them do not get drunk with wine, all that does is produce dissipation. All that does is take you down. If you want to commune with God, be filled with the Spirit. Our religion is not brought about in its fullness and its richness and its reality by drunkenness but rather by the filling of the Spirit. Don't be filled with alcohol, be filled with the Holy Spirit. Literally, be being kept continuously filled by the Spirit.

If you want true religion, if you want true communion with God, if you want true worship to take place, if you want godly living, if you want to please God, then you must be filled with the Spirit...not controlled by alcohol but controlled by the Holy Spirit. The parallel to this is in Colossians 3:16 where instead of saying be filled with the Spirit, Paul says let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly because that's really the same thing. When the Word of Christ dominates your life and you respond in obedience to it, it's the same as being controlled by the Holy Spirit, of course, who is the author of Scripture. Obedience to the Word is being filled with the Spirit. It's not some kind of mystical experience. It's not some kind of ecstatic thing. It's not something that comes over you and catapults you into some unconscious behavior. It's not being knocked over into a dead faint, as you see so often on television. It's not launching off into some ecstatic speech. It's not going out of yourself or being beyond control. It simply is to be continuously controlled by the Spirit who does it through the Word and that means we are obeying the truth.

Now look at verses 19 and 20. "Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord." Let me tell you something. Where the Spirit of God controls a life, where there's a life devoted to the Word of God and obedience to the Word of God, there is praise...that's the first thing. There is praise. And I suppose obviously we could conclude that a worshiping life, a praising life comes from a heart that is filled with joy. It's this simple. You give me an obedient person, obedient to the Word of God, I'll show you a positive, happy, praising, worshiping person whose heart is filled with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, who is singing and making melody in his heart to the Lord, and I'll show you a person who can get along with anybody because they're lost in wonder, love and praise because they're worshiping the Lord.

Read the whole thing [url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/1943.htm]HERE.[/url]


I'd still like to hear what you guys think of "carnal christianity"


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/13 13:23Profile









 This is a good thread

Quote:
These big leaders are heretics.



just what we all need, a 100 plus post thread arguing about glossolalia.

Kristy, you know what they used to do to "hereticks" in the old days?

They'd put 'em before a group of judges, and give them a chance to repent from their heretical ways, and if they didnt, they'd tie 'em to a pole, gather up a mess of oak wood, and burn 'em at the stake.

All the fun's gone out of religion, hasn't it?

neil

 2006/12/13 13:38





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