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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The SIN of FORBIDDING the GIFTS

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PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Proof being today's interpretation of tounges is BABBLE not languages



Proof?

What proof? How can you make such a statement? You have a habit of [i]generalizing[/i] almost everything related to Pentecostalism to the utmost negative degree. In order to make such a statement, you would need to [i]proove[/i] that in every single instance where tongues were spoken in Pentecostal circles, that they were babble.

By making such a statement, you are asserting that Pentecostal missionaries speaking in tongues [i]never once[/i] spoke in a language understood by a foreignor. But there are recorded instances - less than 100 years ago - where English-speaking missionaries spoke in tongues and non-English speaking heathen [i]understood[/i] God being praised in their own native languages. Whole villages, islands were thus converted to Christianity.

You should really stop generalizing. I propose you study recent church history (and in particular, the explosion of Pentecostal missions) and you'll be staggered at what you find. Study John G. Lake's African ministry. Study Wigglesworth testimonies by the secular press of his day. Maria Woodworth-Etter. I highly recommend you look into the birth and amazing history of Assemblies of God missions. In particular, do a liberal search on Victor Plymire's thrilling adventures in Tibet.

Simply amazing, astounding. You'll be shamed for these posts.


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Paul Frederick West

 2006/12/8 18:29Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

EVANGELIST, Nobody is stopping you from being all that the Lord has designed you to be, though this may happen differently than you expect.

Nobody is stopping you from praying to the Lord in tongues in your private prayers, from gathering with others (where two or three are gathered), from giving or receiving prophetic words to those he brings into your life, whether in the foyer, over the phone, by email...


Anger at the church for squelching the gifts is a misplaced focus, I believe. God is far bigger than the institutionalized church. He IS working to build his Church in all kinds of ways. You don't need the trappings of church to excercise the gifts.

Simeon and Anna (recorded in Luke) were right in the middle of an apostate religious system, and yet God enabled them to be who he called them to be - even within the Temple.

The best thing you can do is submit to the Lord, let him break you, melt you, mold you, and fill you. And as you grow in your surrender to him, you can be sure that he will find a place to use you as he chooses.

And as far as the rest of the church - well, God can handle them. He releases giftings as he chooses, and witholds them as he chooses. He did this all through Israel's history, and is doing it now. He's a master at breaking through human barricades.

Do you believe it?

"He is not willing that any should perish..."

"my Church....the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

Diane


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Diane

 2006/12/8 18:44Profile
EVAVGELIST
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

Roadsign,
I am not mad at the Church; I am part of the Church. I wrote this hoping just to help maybe the one that needed some thoughts on the subject.

Oh about the gifts, God has been so faithful to his Word. Proverbs 18:16 16 A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men. I have had the opportunity to preach the gospel to the masses and see them come to the feet of Jesus.
(SAVED HEALED AND DELIVERED)

The Lord has blessed us tremendously; my wife and I are starting another Church plant next month in Perris CA. (Will you all please pray for us (PERRIS CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD)

I remember when I first received a dynamic infilling of the Holy Spirit, I knew it was real (I really did not know chapter, verse) and had a lot of people tell me it was wrong. With that in mind I wish I would have had a paper explaining it was biblical rather than having someone say, “Can you feel it?”

About being broken, that is the life of a servant of God, I have experienced brokenness in ministry many times, I remember once being hooked up to machines for almost 2 years sick, with the Doctors telling my wife I was going to die. Roadsign, I serve the living God, the God that makes a way when there seems to be no way. By his grace I am here today sill preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified.

God Bless





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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/9 0:09Profile
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

Quote:
Simeon and Anna (recorded in Luke) were right in the middle of an apostate religious system, and yet God enabled them to be who he called them to be - even within the Temple.





I forgot to tell you GOOD INSIGHT.


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/9 2:36Profile
Yeshuasboy
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Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada

 Re:

God help us to believe that speaking in tongues is speaking in other languages, and not some babbling "charasmatic heart language" that many are deceived into uttering....some secret prayer language???????? Where did this crazy practice originate?
And what's this quote mean? "It ceased with the end of the apostles and the foundation of the chucrh."
Where did you get this information from Gracealone?

richie


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Richie

 2006/12/9 2:43Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

I see that the discussion we had in another post has made it to this one.

With all love to you gracalone, and all desire for your well being, i desire a humble and also loving response to this scripture.

[b][color=FF0000]1co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [/color][/b]

When, gracealone, will you comment on this passage of scripture and how it shows that tongues is not always a different language. It is often a heavenly language. Why do you limit the Kingdom of God to Heaven. As i understand it, the Kingdom of God is come, and is in us. What you do not understand has no affect on what is true. What is true is true, your belief and rejection of this truth changes your life, not God or the world around you.

I also wanted to say in accordance with paulwest's last post, that when the "Pentecostal Revival's" began to take place in the late 1800's, it started in a small bible school where the students were challenged to search the bible for the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. They concluded by biblical studies that the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit was tongues. When they prayed for a lady to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, she began to speak Japanese. She could speak nothing but Japanese for 2 or 3 days. The government came in and documented that she could not only speak, but read and write Japanese as well. When people would receive another language like this, they would call it "missions tongues" and took it as a sign that they were to be a missionary in that specific country. Pentecostals don't only speak in the tongues of angels. My friend who is a minister told me a testimony when she preached on the streets of mexico and spoke in tongues when she prayed, as usual, only she thought that she was praying in a heavenly language, as usual, but she was later told that she was praising God in Spanish. She doesn't know spanish and doesn't speak it now.

God is limited to your beliefs in this world. In your own life is he limited to your beliefs and others lives are limited by your lack of belief. Don't let doubt rob you or those around you of what God would have for them. Pruning fruit is the devils work.

Once again, much love to you gracealone, your beliefs are very different than mine. I speak humbly, but confidently in my doctrine. I pray you receive it as such.

1co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

To say that prophecies and tongues have ceased is to say that knowledge has ceased and that christ (that which is perfect) has come. And neither has christ come, nor have any of these three things ceased. Not knowledge, not prophecy, and not tongues. Not until Christ comes back.


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Matt Chenier

 2006/12/9 5:06Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Roadsign, I am not mad at the church



Okay, brother, It's just that in Cyberspace caps means shouting, and I "heard" some loud sounds there at the beginning of this thread.

Hey, what's so bad about anger at the church!! It means you are alive, and not a frog in a frying pan, slowly cooking to death without feeling the rising temperature.

Praise God for anger! The challenge for all of us is to channel our anger into spiritual victories, and not be immobilized by the things we are angry at. We look to God's omnipotence, not man's impotence.

"Mercy triumphs over judgment"

Diane


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Diane

 2006/12/9 12:10Profile
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

Quote:
Okay, brother, It's just that in Cyberspace caps means shouting, and I "heard" some loud sounds there at the beginning of this thread.



Sorry, I did not know this or that about cyberspace; this is my first time on cyberspace.

Quote:
anger at the church!!



Anger at the Church is the Devils job. I’m not called to tear down; I’m called to build up. I use to always point out wrong things and talk about them. Now I try to present solutions to the problems. It’s like my Pastor told me years ago, “Anyone can go to a junk yard and point out cars with problems. But only those who are skillful can fix the broken down cars.” It’s the same with the Church; we need those to STAND for the body of Christ.

The Church is instituted by Christ; it’s his BRIDE.

Quote:
frog in a frying pan, slowly cooking to death without feeling the rising temperature.



Hey, just call me the frog that is changing the temperature. I’m not an outsider; I’m in the Church making a difference as much as possible.



Quote:
channel our anger into spiritual victories



My desire is to be motivated by love not anger.


God bless, Josh


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/9 22:20Profile
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

Quote:
I agree that its sin to forbid gifts concidering that GOD GIVES THEM



I’m glad that you agree with the syllogism I presented. So, I will move on to what gifts exist today.


Quote:
Some gifts were given to the early church to lay the foundation of the church. Eph 2:20, 2 Corinthians 12:12.



Ephesians 2:19-20 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I have read some comments that you and others have made about this verse. You referred to built in the past tense which is OK (verb particle aorist passive nominative masculine plural) it is in the aorist which means it happened, no comment, it just happened. It is referring back to the saints (having been built upon the foundation.) The essence of these verses is to say, “You were strangers, but now you’re citizens with a foundation.” Just because a foundation was laid, did not mean that the Apostles ceased to labor... In other words after Paul wrote this verse, he was still laboring with his apostolic calling. (It is in the past tense for us, but it was also it the past tense for them)
I am not saying that some apostles did not have a special task, they did, they wrote the WORD OF GOD under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Yet, my point is this, when you refer to the gifts it seems like you miss 1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY (not just Apostles) MAN to profit withal.


2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Indeed, signs, wonders, and mighty deeds can be signs of an Apostle, but that doesn’t limit it to Apostles only.

Luke 9:49-50 49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, FORBID HIM NOT: for he that is not against us is for us.

Mark 16:17-18 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe (pisteo, THE ONE EXERCISING FAITH) ; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Acts 8:5-7 5 Then PHILIP went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.


Quote:
doesn't happen today.



Maybe not in your Church but it does all around the world.


Quote:
Not that it can't but it won't



You say that God can not or will not allow speaking in tongues today. Can you give me chapter and verse for this? Let me answer this for you NO. Do you want to know why? IT IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE.

Quote:
"Just serve God".



It is wise to say serve God, it is also wise to obey the Scriptures, because serving God is obeying him. 1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
One reason I like to discuss this topic is because one of my dear friends moved with this same Holy Ghost power and touched millions for Jesus.


Quote:
What of the lost and the dying? What of those in any church who are not told the truth and are self-decieved? Especially those with false assurance.




I thought you knew GraceAlone that’s my mission.


God Bless, Josh


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/10 4:32Profile
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

MattChenier,

I did not know someone else presented THE SIN OF FORBIDDING THE GIFTS.

Allow me to comment briefly on this verse, (I do not know if GraceAlone will agree).
This verse often gets misinterpreted to try to back the doctrine of speaking in tongues.

First of all Paul never intended to use this to back up that doctrine. When it is talking about the tongues of men and angels it was never intended for people to come to the conclusion that there are super intergalactic tongues. This is a (hyperbole) a figure of speech to really express a meaning. He is not saying all these things are possible, he is saying even if these things were possible.

1. Speak with the tongues of men and angels
2. Understand all mysteries
3. All knowledge
4. All faith

For example, if one had all knowledge and all faith he would be equal with God and that is not possible.
About angelic tongues,
1. There are no approved examples of angels speaking in some heavenly tongue different than known tongues.
2. In Scripture Angels spoke the tongue of the people they were communicating to, not some mysteries language.

I was always taught, “Never hang heavy weights on small threads”

It is true that one of Charles Parham’s students (Agnes Ozman) experienced speaking in tongues on Jan. 1, 1901 to be exact. It soon spread to 34 members of his student body and by 1906 he had up to 10,000 followers. It is also true that some spoke languages that they never knew or learned.

God Bless You, Josh


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/10 8:03Profile





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