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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Apostles today

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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

This might be a really crude way of thinking, but I think it helps clarify the ministry of an apostle. An apostle is essentially an evangelist [u]and[/u] pastor rolled up into one. I don't believe Keith Daniel is an apostle because he takes no responsibility of oversight for the churches he ministers at. If they never invite him back to speak again, he will probably never take much thought to them again.

Each church an apostle is established with will provide continued oversight for the congregation they have a relationship with. He's vested in the care of the congregation. He's not just some itinerant minister floating by to give a good word of encouragement, and then *poof*, gone the next day forevermore. Even when an apostle is visiting some other congregation, he will continue to be interested in the other congregations spiritually. Thus, you see Paul in his letters continually praying and giving thanks for the churches in his network, and continuing to write and visit them.

*edit* An off-the-cuff after thought. Perhaps one could further divide things like this if it helps them to think about these things more. Imagine dividing apostles, evangelists, elders and teachers into these correlating camps:


a) Traveling
b) Localized

Ministry Group 1: a) Apostles b) Elders
Ministry Group 2: a) Evangelists b) Teachers
Ministry Group 3: a & b) Prophets



I would not attempt to defend these things dogmatically. I only give this as a way of thinking to better help us picture it in our mind. In the Scriptures, apostles and elders are related. Elders seem pretty much like localized resident apostles. We never see them going anywhere. Yet, the apostles Peter and John in their epistles writing as apostles also write to localized elders as their "fellow elders."

The only specific example of an evangelist in Scripture is Philip. He seems to simply be an itinerant free-floating preacher, proclaiming the gospel to the heathen everywhere he goes. But since we know from Eph 4:11 that evangelist are not merely for the heathen, but also for the building up and strengthening of the body, it is likely that he also simply went from church to church at times, merely instructing them and moving on. Thus, evangelist are sorta just like free-floating teachers in that regard.

And prophets can function both locally and in traveling.

I hope this has helped clarify.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/12/2 23:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This might be a really crude way of thinking, but I think it helps clarify the ministry of an apostle. An apostle is essentially an evangelist and pastor rolled up into one. I don't believe Keith Daniel is an apostle because he takes no responsibility of oversight for the churches he ministers at. If they never invite him back to speak again, he will probably never take much thought to them again.



I would agree. I think a good example of a modern day apostle would be KP Yohannan from GFA.ORG He truely is an evangalist with a burden for every church they plant and the labors that they send to the field. He regularly visits the churches and the different missions training facilities they start.

Here is a message by him called:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4399]Christ Call Follow in my Footsteps[/url]

 2006/12/2 23:42
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

A dear Pastor friend of mine ministers in Mexico as a missionary quite often. He is a PASTOR. He is NOT an Apostle, nor claims to be.

Can we fit him in as an avposto,lw by finding some definition using semantic ranges on a Greek word? That’s one of the problems we have today, people quote Greek, Hebrew, and Latin and can’t read it to save their lives.

Forget the grammatical terms…. When I say Apostle I’m talking about (Eph. 4:8b he gave gifts unto men) these men; Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists ECT. are the gifts unto men. (Eph 4:11) So if I asked if an Evangelist (the one with the special gift) can share insights about his ministry, I’m not just asking anyone who has evangelized. For example I believe Billy Gram is an evangelist, I’m asking him.

I know people who prophesy; but they are not PROPHETS.

Maybe someone understands what I’m trying to communicate.
I’m just asking if someone who is a TRUE APOSTLE (a gift from God, a unique calling for today) can share some insight, that’s all.


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/2 23:57Profile
EVAVGELIST
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

KingJimmy,
Thanks for your insight. One thing I’m trying to find out is, if you took two men, and both are doing the same type of ministry, yet one has this unique gift and the other does not; What benifet would the one with the gift be? If any?


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/3 0:10Profile
Nellie
Member



Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

About a Year ago some man came into our Church {or the Church I used to attend}
he poured oil over the Pastors head, and said that the Pastor was an Apostle, and that his Daughter was a Prophetess.
He was giving out the Gifts of the Spirit.
the Pastor hasn't been the same since, and this man told him he would preach to lots of people.
Everytime this man came to Church, the Pastor was exalted over Christ.
He blew some type of horn and was out of order.
Not at any time did the Pastor tell him he was out of order, or disturbing the Service.
I can't tell you what an Apostle is, but I can tell you what one isn't.
This man wasn't sent from God.
Thanks for letting me share this.
God Bless
Nellie

 2006/12/3 12:26Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren

Quote:
Let's not get all 'hyped' up on the apostleship. I feel that God has called me to one, but let's not honor one above another.



true, but let it be known that the apostle is honored more in heaven than prophet, preacher, teacher and evangelist. He may be the least esteemed on earth as he will have to be the slave of all, but like the word says, the first shall be last and the last first...nonetheless let each one of us seek God as to what his/her calling/office/responsibility is and do that.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/12/3 17:59Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:
I did not use scriptural backing, because it is a simple universal truth that only requires common sense.



Evangelist, this is not true. Keep in consideration that some people, maybe even myself, are young in Christ and don't know certain things.

Actually, fyi, Paul was 3 of the 4 (not 5) fold ministry. Evangelist, teacher, AND apostle. See 1 Timothy 2:7 and 2 Timothy 1:11

So, that of itself shows that someone can be an apostle and evangelist and such. And I believe that is the case with Philip, so that's really not a good defination or stance. Because Philip seems to be an apostle AND evangelist. Matt. 10:2-3 (Unless that is a different Phillip) and Acts 21:8

Quote:
Can SOME being sent out be an Apostle? Yes
Can SOME with the characteristics of an Apostle indeed be an Apostle? Yes
Can SOME missionaries be Apostles? Yes



Well, according to scripture, which I think that matters, the question should be ALL and remain the same answer 'yes'.

Keith Green was labeled more of a prophet than anything and then near the end of his ministry. He leaned more to evangelist.

KingJimmy great explaination of apostle. I've heard that before but I thought that was mainly for overseers but great use of scripture.

Blessings.

 2006/12/3 18:47Profile
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

Lovegrace,
It is true that gifting can and does overlap.

Lovegrace,“And I believe that is the case with Phillip”

Scripture never calls Phillip an Apostle, with this in mind I believe it is always safe to lean on what Scripture says. Although it is possible for the gifts and callings to overlap, I still believe some can hold an office and do the work of another office.

Correct me if I am wrong, I never thought Timothy was an Evangelist, yet he was told by Paul to do the WORK of an evangelist (2Tim 4:5)

Does everyone who can do the work of a special gifting (Eph 4:11) automatically make them one? Or is this a divine gift from God?

I have a hard time believing ALL= APOSTLES.

Go ye in to all the world= Universal call= to All Christians
Therefore all Christians are APOSTLES= Sent out ones
This seems to fit your logic;

If this is true just call me APOSTLE, PROPHET, EVANGELIST, THE PASTOR WHO TEACHES Josh


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/3 20:40Profile
EVAVGELIST
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

I know the Greek for apostle (apostelo) is sent out. When I’m talking about apostles I’m not just talking about people being sent out. I’m talking about the unique calling of an Apostle.

Example: The Greek word for raise up is from the root (egero) which means simply to rise up.
If I asked you if you can raise the dead, I’m not asking if you can lift up a dead body,
But, I’m sure you can make the Greek word fit for this. So, when I’m asking if you can raise the dead, I’m asking if you can bring back life. The same thing it means in the Bible.

In like manner when I’m asking about Apostles I’m not referring to every Christian I’m referring to one with the calling, you know like, Paul, Peter and John.

Third call, IF THERE IS ANY APOSTLES ON THIS SITE, CAN YOU SHARE THE UNIQUENESSS OF YOUR MINISTRY TODAY?

Thanks, Apostle Evangelist…….. just kidding


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/3 21:29Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

A dear Pastor friend of mine ministers in Mexico as a missionary quite often. He is a PASTOR. He is NOT an Apostle, nor claims to be.



Not everybody that goes and ministers in some place otuside of their local residency is an apostle/missionary. Consider John-Mark, in Acts 13:5, who tagged along with the apostles Barnabas and Paul. In this verse he is simply named as "their helper." (NASB) So, not all who go along on missionary journies are apostles.

However, I would say that anybody claiming to be called as a missionary by God needs to understand that to be a missionary in the more technical usage of the word is to be an apostle.

*edit* Recently I posted in another thread how I believe that God has recently called me to be a missionary. Specifically the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, "Missionary to Greensboro." With my understanding of the term "missionary," and my understanding of Scripture, I believe God has called me to be an apostle.

Though because of the abuses that are common today, I prefer to be identified with the word "missionary," though my theological self-identification (that was a mouth full!) is that of an apostle.


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Jimmy H

 2006/12/3 23:21Profile





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