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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Thank for sharing Chanin, this is alot of good stuff you are thinking about.

Quote:
f prophetic people love their prophecy more than Jesus, if dreamers love their dreams more than Jesus- if they want these things and hold them in high esteem- then I would question the motives.


This is a side note but I have had an experience seeing how a Christian who lets dreams run his life and guide his steps rather than Gods Word can go astray from the head (Christ). In better wording 'lost connection with the head.'

Quote:
The different mystics that I have read (Madame Guyon, Francis Fenelon, etc...) were all killed because they were coming away form the Catholic church in their beliefs. Every book I've read from Francis Fenelon, Madame guyon, etc... never mentions Mary or the normal "Catholic" dogma. I could be wrong about Mad. Guyon.


I totally agree, from my reading of Madame guyon it seems she is very spiritual and even though in admist the Catholic Church, she still saw the true Church, the mystical body of Christ. The Kingdom of God in believers hearts where Christ reigns enthroned.

Quote:
I hope this is not a step backwards to keep tradition and man's doctrines ruling over Christianity. I am really looking at the bigger, over all picture here- of what God is wanting to do- what His will is for His people.


I know God will show this to use as we continue to seek Him and show our intentions of being satified with nothing but the truth of God. It might not come quickly but He definetly is revealing his purposes to His body in these last days.


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 2004/2/21 10:06Profile
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 Re:

Mike,

I know how you feel. I was overwhelmed by everything I read and then all of the questioning of things. When this happens, I just have to get my focus back on Jesus alone- and "get up- and do the next thing". (in the words of Oswald Chambers).

I think this confusion for people is what the enemy wants. Our focus should not be on things "about Jesus"- not His crucifixion, not on what we want or would like to happen, not on anything but just Him.

I was fed up with all of it last night and have decided to let it all go. Jesus is all that matters to me. These others things are just getting my focus off of Him. I am supposed to be becoming more of Him and less of me. How can I do that when I am thinking and worrying about all of these other things.

I will keep you (and your family) in my thoughts and prayers!

Greg,
once I gave a catholic friend a book with three mystic writers in it. Fenelon, Guyon, and I forgot the other one. I loved it and was moved to give it to her. She loved it also. She said "isn't it funny that these were of the Catholic faith?" and I replied that , yes, but the Catholic church had them killed! I saw Jesus as being their only focus- I guess the Roman church saw this too! :)


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Chanin

 2004/2/21 10:47Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
once I gave a catholic friend a book with three mystic writers in it. Fenelon, Guyon, and I forgot the other one. I loved it and was moved to give it to her. She loved it also. She said "isn't it funny that these were of the Catholic faith?" and I replied that , yes, but the Catholic church had them killed! I saw Jesus as being their only focus- I guess the Roman church saw this too! :)


Yes it is amazing how many people have been killed and persecuted by the Catholic church through the ages. I wonder if there are some good books on this topic? I know of one that has a strong Baptist bias to it "the trial of blood."


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 2004/2/21 14:07Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I will keep you (and your family) in my thoughts and prayers!


Thanks Chanin.


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Mike Balog

 2004/2/21 17:04Profile
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 Re: books on persucution

Quote:

wrtbooks wrote:
I wonder if there are some good books on this topic? I know of one that has a strong Baptist bias to it "the trial of blood."



There is also one with an anabaptist bias to it its called martyrs mirror, I think you can find some of it on the internet but I'd have to check up on that.

Lyndon

 2004/2/22 5:39Profile
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 Re: More about "The Passion"


“A Lot of Power”

Thanks, Philip, for the original post, and Chanin for calling particular attention to the supernatural phenomena in the life of Anne Catherine Emmerich.

Quote:
“What's particularly interesting is the way God seems to be working in incredible ways through miraculous situations on the set. "There is an interesting power in the script," Gibson notes. "There have been a lot of unusual things happening on this set, good things like people being healed of diseases, a couple of people have had sight and hearing restored, another guy was struck by lightning while we were filming the crucifixion scene and he just got up and walked away. There was even a little six-year-old girl (the daughter of a person connected with the crew) who had epilepsy since she was born and had up to 50 epileptic fits a day. She's doesn't have them anymore for over a month now." He marvels at how this movie has effected or touched most of the cast in some deep and personal way. "And they really give you a lot of hope. It's like wow! I mean, we're not kidding around about this. It's really happening”.”
http://www.crosswalk.com/fun/movies/1195713.html




Quote:
"This is not a movie that anyone will 'like'.... It certainly doesn't 'entertain'. There isn't even the sense that one has just watched a movie. What it is… an experience -- on a level of primary emotion that is scarcely comprehensible. Every shred of human preconception or predisposition is utterly stripped away.... Quite honestly, I wanted to vomit. It hits that hard.

"The film grabs you in the first five seconds, and never lets go. The brutality, humiliation, and gore are almost inconceivable - and still probably does not go far enough. The scourging alone seems to never end, and you cringe at the sound and splatter of every blow - no matter how steely your nerves. Even those who have known combat or prison will have trouble, no matter their experience....

"What you've heard about how audiences have reacted is true. There was no sound after the film's conclusion. No noise at all. No one got up. No one moved. The only sound one could hear was sobbing....”

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/passion.htm



Quote:
“It is crucial to realize that the images and language at the heart of "The Passion of the Christ" flow directly out of Gibson's personal dedication to Catholicism in one of its most traditional and mysterious forms -- the 16th century Latin Mass.

“‘I don't go to any other services,’ the director told the Eternal Word Television Network. ‘I go to the old Tridentine Rite. That's the way that I first saw it when I was a kid. So I think that that informs one's understanding of how to transcend language. Now, initially, I didn't understand the Latin. ... But I understood the meaning and the message and what they were doing. I understood it very fully and it was very moving and emotional and efficacious, if I may say so."

“ ‘The goal of the movie is to shake modern audiences by brashly juxtaposing the sacrifice of the cross with the sacrifice of the altar -- which is the same thing,’ said Gibson. This ancient union of symbols and sounds has never lost its hold on him. ‘There is’, he stressed, ‘a lot of power in these dead languages’.”
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/passion.htm




360. Why is the Mass the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross?
The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross because in the Mass the victim is the same, and the principal priest is the same, Jesus Christ.

(a) Christ, though invisible, is the principal minister, offering Himself in the Mass. The priest is the visible and secondary minister, offering Christ in the Mass.

(b) The most important part of the Mass is the Consecration. In the Consecration bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ who then is really present on the altar. Through the priest He offers Himself to God in commemoration of His death on the cross.


362. Is there any difference between the sacrifice of the cross and the Sacrifice of the Mass?

The manner in which the sacrifice is offered is different. On the cross Christ physically shed His blood and was physically slain, while in the Mass there is no physical shedding of blood nor physical death, because Christ can die no more; on the cross Christ gained merit and satisfied for us, while in the Mass He applies to us the merits and satisfaction of His death on the cross.

(a) On the cross Christ was offered in a bloody manner; in the Mass He is offered in an unbloody manner. On the cross Christ alone offered Himself directly; in the Mass He offers Himself through the priest, who is the secondary but true minister, dependent upon Christ.

(b) On the cross Christ suffered and died; in the Mass He can no longer suffer or die. On the cross He paid the price of our redemption; in the Mass He applies to us the merits of His Sacrifice on the cross.

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/euchb1a.htm





“’The goal of the movie is to shake modern audiences by brashly juxtaposing the sacrifice of the cross with the sacrifice of the altar -- which is the same thing,’ said Gibson.”


May we infer that by using a soundtrack which is partly in Latin Mr. Gibson synchronized (“juxtaposed”) elements of the unbloody sacrifice of the Mass (“altar”) with the bloody sacrifice of the Cross, and blended together what is heard with what is seen?


“’When I was a kid’…I didn’t understand the Latin….But I understood the meaning and the message and what they were doing. I understood it very fully and it was very moving and emotional and efficacious, if I may say so’.”
“’There is’, he stressed, ‘a lot of power in these dead languages’.”


Roger







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Roger P.

 2004/2/22 7:01Profile
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 Re: Books on persecution

Check out the Church History section on Richard Bennett’s (former Catholic priest) website.

“In this section we wish to give documentary historical evidence of the persecution of Bible Believers by the Roman Catholic Church.”

http://bereanbeacon.org/history_new.htm

While you’re there, read Mr. Bennett’s article, “The Alignment of New Evangelicals with Apostasy.” Greg has provided us with the audiosermon (same title) here at Sermonindex.

That article is very relevant to “The Passion” matter since so many Evangelical leaders are endorsing the film.

http://bereanbeacon.org/articles/alignment_evang_apostasy.htm


Roger


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Roger P.

 2004/2/22 7:12Profile
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 Re:

Still another view:

"THE PASSION - A Challenge to the CHURCH"
-by Andrew Strom.

I had the privilege of seeing an advance screening of
the 'Passion' movie at a local cinema last night. It is
strange, because yesterday I started getting emails from
Christians claiming that the film is a kind of 'Catholic
conspiracy' and vowing that they would never see it.
What hogwash! GO SEE THE MOVIE!!

Sure, there is the odd moment when there is a slight
'Catholic' tinge to things, but it is almost nothing. This
film is a majestic and powerful viewing experience that
will cause a lot of people to truly consider the claims
of Jesus - perhaps for the first time.

Could it cause backslidden believers to turn back to
Christ? Yes, I believe so. Could it cause a whole lot of
people to start checking out their local churches? Yes,
I can certainly see that happening. It is a very powerful
film, and I believe God desires to use it greatly.

But here is the crux of the problem. The churches simply
cannot carry the 'weight' of this movie. By and large, they
represent a different "Jesus" altogether from the one that
we see torn and battered in the gospel accounts. A church
that has bent over backwards to make its services a
"Seeker-friendly" mix of warm homilies and entertaining
slickness, has nothing to say to a generation that is
seeking the true Jesus of the Bible.

It is just like what happened after 9-11. The people came
flooding into the churches seeking a faith that could
bear the 'weight' of the momentous events unfolding
around them. And they found we had erected a plastic
imitation - a shallow, lightweight "Jesus" - complete with
ambient 'muzak' and mindless appeals for money. A
comfortable Western counterfeit of the real thing. They
did not stay for long. And why should things be any
different this time?

Every day we hear reports of big churches buying up
large blocks of tickets and urging their people to use
this film as an "outreach opportunity". I believe it is an
'inreach opportunity'. -A chance for us to look into the
face of Christ and find that our shallow pretense of
Christianity bears no relation to the real thing whatsoever.

We are nothing like Him - we really aren't.

How incongruous that we plan to use this blood-spattered,
shatteringly 'real' movie to invite people back to our
comfortable, plush-seated crematoriums - there to be
wooed by our utterly "unreal" Sunday pantomimes. I
don't think they will be staying long this time either.

As I said, today's Western church simply cannot bear
the 'weight' of this movie. It stops our mouths, just
as it stops theirs. Our "Jesus" comes out looking like
a cheap used-car salesman - for that is what we have
made him. We invented him to perfectly fit our
'Laodicean' lifestyle. And so we sit in our lovely buildings
with our lovely music and our lovely smiles, wondering
why the world cannot get as excited as we do by this
plastic Jesus of ours. Meantime, all the earth sighs and
groans for the real thing.

Tell me, church, don't you think it is possible that God
intends this movie to challenge us,just as it challenges
the unbelievers? Will we be deaf to the voice of God,
or will we allow him to begin to dismantle this plastic
edifice that we have built - this prison of our own making
that prevents us from representing the real Jesus as He
really is?

Surely the time has come for another 'Great Reformation'
in the church. May this movie be just one of many
"shakings" that is sent to remove the blinders from our eyes.

God bless you all.

-Andrew Strom.


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Chanin

 2004/2/22 11:04Profile
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 Re:

Re:Andrew Strom

Thanks Chanin, boy this sounds vaugely farmiliar...



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Mike Balog

 2004/2/22 12:53Profile
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 Re:

Thanks Roger,

Read all of the "...persecution of Bible Believers by the Roman Catholic Church.”

Had read bit's and pieces, but this was a very good summary of the atrocities of the past.

Wish I could say as much about the article on the movie from the same site:
[url=http://bereanbeacon.org/articles/mel_gibsons_vivid_deception.htm]http://bereanbeacon.org/articles/mel_gibsons_vivid_deception.htm[/url]

He loses some credibility by stretching things to get his point of view across, even if he has some good points. It taints the whole thing.
I don't think it's the Catholic conspiracy he makes it out to be.(also stated by Andrew Strom in this thread)

Example;
"[i]The goal of the movie is to shake modern audiences by brashly juxtaposing the ‘sacrifice of the cross with the [b]sacrifice of the altar[/b] - which is the same thing,' said Gibson.[/i]"

He then goes on to link [i]The Church of Rome likewise juxtaposes the sacrifice of the cross with the [b]sacrifice of the Mass[/b], to which Mel Gibson has given clear testimony. She teaches that Mass and Christ's sacrifice are “one single sacrifice”. Thus she declares, “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: ‘The victim is one and the same :…‘This divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. '[/i]

Other examples were disingenuous as well,
it seems so unnecessary and weakens his argument in my opinion.


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Mike Balog

 2004/2/22 13:46Profile





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