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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Gay Doesn't Equal Sin

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 Re: Gay Doesn't Equal Sin

adam said

Quote:
but the cross provides the soluion.

I would like to temper this statement.

The cross provides the solution to the nature of sin (mentioned in previous posts) and to the sins committed.

It may also be [i]a[/i] way of thinking which some who used to practise homosexual acts, can embrace.

Overall, though, it may be helpful to think of [i]living free from sin[/i], as a matter of [i]being [u]willing[/u] to [b]live[/b] in God[/i], and to cling to one's freedom from sin as an ongoing and growing territory one is reclaiming for oneself. There is healing here.

This [i]is[/i] the application of the cross.

I suppose I feel that some people refer to the cross as a solution to the persistent desires in the flesh towards sin, in a way which suggests sin has not really been dealt with..... that every day, the believer wakes up, they are facing the same magnitude of temptation as they were before they were saved.

While it may [i]feel[/i] like that, I don't believe it's true, and it is helpful - very helpful - for a believer to [i][b]believe[/i][/b] that the axe has been laid to the root of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, (sin) and they are [i][b]already living in[/b][/i] the [u]power of the tree of life[/u].

 2006/12/6 7:23
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Dorcas,

I totally agree - thank you for clearing that up. I actually know a Godly man in a marriage of over 25 years that every day has to put on the willingness to live in God in this specific area.

If we accept Christ's cross without turning and carrying our own, we have missed the whole point.

Thank you for your reply, it was necessary.

Adam.

 2006/12/6 16:43Profile









 Re:

MC wrote:

"I would tend to agree with this progession and relationship. Idle and bored people are soon sensually indulgent people. If people allow themselves to become more wantonly piggish, sexuality is only one unabated appetite that is unleashed...gluttony, greed, jealousy, ambition, and other revelries begin to surface.

Base corruptions, such as sexual perversion, but also overeating, material greed, and laziness, accompany each other because at their core they are all the same selfish aphrodisia. "


Comtpon, I would tend to agree, as long as you don't include chocolate or coffee :)

but seriously, i have great difficulty condemning people of sexual sins who in many cases are acting upon completely natural, human motivations and feelings. They tell us that "God made us this way." Moreover Jesus tells us that those without sin should cast the first stones. get me to the back of the line here. sometimes it is best to convey the unconditional love of Jesus and let the conviction of sin come on its own to each believer through the Holy Ghost.

Bub

PS. I've been absent and hope to be more regular again. glad to see so many familiar voices engaging God's love

bubbaguy

 2006/12/6 17:13
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Bubbaguy!

A blast from the past :-P

Quote:
Comtpon, I would tend to agree, as long as you don't include chocolate or coffee :)



Well of course...that goes without saying. I would also exclude McDonald's french fries, and freshly baked donuts with a glass of whole milk.

Quote:
i have great difficulty condemning people of sexual sins who in many cases are acting upon completely natural, human motivations and feelings.



I'm afraid I would be completely predictable in my response to this one. Natural" is hardly a virtue when it comes to the heart of man. Furthermore, I think we can agree that something that was unnatural to a person can be learned to be viewed as natural. However, I think you noticed that I was careful to not show prejiduce for one type of sexual perversion over another...

Quote:
Jesus tells us that those without sin should cast the first stones. get me to the back of the line here.



Definately. Yet there is a difference between condemning a person in particular and maintaining in general that some acts or behaviors or attitudes are still sins. When Jesus challenged those men who were standing over that woman, He wasn't challenging their understanding of the sin...only their position in judging the woman. Adultery was still a sin.

Quote:
sometimes it is best to convey the unconditional love of Jesus and let the conviction of sin come on its own to each believer through the Holy Ghost.



I feel you on this...and I would hope to represent the hope and love of Jesus who is the likeness of God...and not just my own hurtful preferences. (I lack in many areas here.)

Recently our little daughter told us, while at a friends house overnight, that the father walked through the house in nothing but a towel. (Briefly I'm sure.) Well, we kindly but firmly addressed the situation, and let them know that our daughter won't be spending the night over there anymore. (We did keep the door open for their little girl to spend time at our house.)

The mother was surprised, and hurt,...she cried in our living room. It was very regrettable and makes me sad even mentioning it. Yet for the sake of our little girl we had to pass a judgement...yea even legislate a new law: adults will dress properly in front of my children.

My point is risking this sensitive story is to convey that my love...which I hope is growing in the love of God, doesn't like to see my children influenced by careless or indifferent sin. In fact my love hates it.

I'm not taking the point any further then that...just offered it for what it was; another day as an imperfect dad trying to show love to his family, though not everyone will understand my judgements on how to do this. These are choppy waters we find ourselves in.

Good to see you back Bubbaguy...

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/12/6 19:51Profile
freedbyjc
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida

 Re: Gay Doesn't Equal Sin

The truth and nothing but the Truth of the person and the Word of Christ shall free us from the chains of bondage that our sins have forged for us....



Opening the Closed American Mind

In a relativistic culture hostile toward notions of unchanging, ultimate truth, the gospel can be an offense.
By Ed Dobson

The audience at our Saturday night outreach service is one-third unchurched individuals, one-third church dropouts, and one-third church adherents, so the majority come from a secular viewpoint. At the end of the service, I respond to their written questions; I have no idea beforehand what they will be. Questions range from predestination to masturbation, from abortion to suicide, and my answers aren't always what people want to hear.

One evening someone wrote, "I'm gay, and I've always been gay. Is that okay?"

"What you're really asking," I responded, "is 'What does the Bible say about human sexuality?' The Bible teaches that sexuality is a gift from God to be experienced within the commitment of heterosexual marriage. My understanding of the Bible is that all expressions of our sexuality outside of those boundaries are not within God's creative intent.
"Are you asking me if it's okay to have homosexual feelings? Yes, it is. But Scripture does not permit you to follow through with those feelings as a legitimate expression of sexuality. If you try to ignore that fact, there are consequences, one of which is displeasing God."

Answers like that can irritate people who don't accept an absolute standard of truth. One man said to me, "I really like Saturday night, but when you answer those questions, I wish you would quit referring to the Bible and tell me what you really think."

I congratulated the man on being so perceptive. The point of our seeker-sensitive service is not to tell people what I think but to help connect them with biblical truth. In a culture committed to relativism, hostile toward notions of unchanging, ultimate truth, the gospel can be an offense, no matter how positive my presentation. Sometimes that can't be avoided.

But sometimes it can. I've found that I can gain a hearing for the truth of the gospel, even in a relativistic culture. As I've conducted seeker-sensitive services and befriended non-Christians, I've gathered several principles for reaching skeptics with the truth.

Explain Why
The spirit of individualism, rather than community, dominates our culture, giving relativism a strong appeal. "You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want" is the spirit of the times.

If a couple on Donahue says, "We've been married 60 years, and we're still happy," the audience applauds. But if they say, "We believe everyone should remain married for a lifetime," they'll get booed off the set.

Pervasive individualism has a positive side. People want what enhances their lifestyles, so I can reach them if I demonstrate that the values I teach are truths beneficial to anyone. I must show the modern skeptic the practical wisdom of biblical principles, particularly those principles that appear rigid or intolerant.

Appeal to Curiosity About the Bible
While many secular people reject the notion of absolute values, they are curious to know what the Bible says. And if they have come to church, I assume they have at least some interest in biblical teachings or they wouldn't be there in the first place.

When answering the questions of seekers and skeptics, I nearly always preface my remarks with, "If you're asking me what the Bible says, here is the answer." If I dodge and weave around the Bible, my audience won't respect me.

Sometimes I must frankly say, "I may not like the Bible's answer, you may not like it, but this is what it says."

One Saturday evening a questioner wrote, "I'm a Christian. My brother was not a believer when he committed suicide. I still believe he'll be in heaven. What do you think?"

"What you're asking is whether the Bible gives several options on how to get to heaven," I responded. "I have to be honest with you. Scripture says Christ is the only way to heaven, and there are no other options. You are probably thinking, So what does that mean for my brother? Since you are a Christian, you undoubtedly had some influence on him; perhaps before he made this horrible choice he did turn and commit his life to Christ."

I would have loved to assure him that his brother was waiting for him in heaven, but I couldn't. I concluded, "If you're asking whether people can go to heaven without accepting Christ, no, they cannot. I'd like to tell you it doesn't matter, but if I did, I would be dishonest about the Bible." People respect that level of integrity.

Sometimes people are surprised by what the Scriptures say. People often ask me, "Will I go to heaven if I'm gay?"

"Whether you're gay or not has nothing to do with whether you will go to heaven," I say. "The relevant issue is the nature of your relationship with Jesus Christ. Have you placed your faith in him as your Savior? That's the sole criteria by which God will judge every human being."

I try to satisfy natural curiosity about the Bible in two ways. I preach verse by verse on Sunday mornings, and on Saturday nights I use the Bible to answer topical questions. By going through a book one verse at a time, I'm eventually going to bump into the issue that concerns an individual. The questions on Saturday night force me to deal with listeners' urgent concerns.

Know Your Essentials
We gain a hearing with a secular audience when we don't confuse essentials with nonessentials.

One summer night, we held our Saturday service downtown, outdoors. We had just started when a ruckus broke out at the back of the crowd. It turned out to be a group of angry Christians staging a protest; they hoisted signs proclaiming that Christian rock music was of the devil. They became so disruptive that police patrolling the event arrested them.

Meanwhile 80 punk rockers, attracted by the music in our service, were sitting on a wall nearby, listening to my message.

No doubt the protesters were sincere in their beliefs about rock music, but they failed to see their preferences about music were not on the same level of truth as biblical absolutes. (No one has yet shown me where Scripture explicitly condemns rock music.) I believe that will prevent them from effectively reaching unbelievers.

This not only affects how we go about evangelizing but what and how we preach and teach. When preaching or answering questions on Saturday night, I periodically make a distinction: What someone believes about Christ and the nature of salvation is far more important than what he or she believes, let's say, about women's ordination. I lose respect with outsiders if I treat both topics with the same level of authority.

Actually, I try to distinguish between three types of truth: absolutes are truths essential to the faith, truths that never change; convictions are beliefs about which orthodox Christians may differ; preferences are traditions or customs, like musical tastes, that may be compatible with the Bible but aren't biblically based, and they may change with the culture and over time.

Naturally, sometimes people will differ about which category a subject belongs to, but most issues seem to fall into one or another.

Don't Skip the Tough Topics
I was flying back from California one day, sitting in an aisle seat across from some businessmen. One of them happened to notice I was reading my Greek New Testament and asked, "What language is that?"

"Greek," I replied.

"What kind of Greek?"

"New Testament Greek."

"That's amazing," he said. "I studied Greek when I attended a religious college in the Midwest. Why are you studying it?"

"I'm preparing for my sermon on Sunday."

"Really? What are you speaking on?"

I paused at that point. I looked at his buddies sitting next to him who were half-listening to our conversation. Did I really want to break the news to him in front of all his friends? But I knew I had to be honest with him.

"Well, Sunday morning my subject is hell," I said.

That was the end of the conversation for the rest of the flight.

When you're trying to gain a hearing from a secular audience, it's tempting to water down demanding Scriptures or avoid them altogether. We're afraid people will tune out the sermon.
But I've discovered that's a mistake. Just when I think I know what the culture wants to hear and what it doesn't, I'm surprised all over again. Our most popular Saturday night series was, "What Does It Mean to Be a Christian?" By any measure—attendance, audience response, or follow-up—it was the most successful four evenings in our Saturday history. Until then, I had dealt with subjects such as depression, bitterness, and forgiving your parents. The last thing I expected was an overwhelming response to such a simple, straightforward topic.

I learned a valuable lesson: I don't need to trade away forthright, biblical messages for something faddish or trendy. People have a basic spiritual hunger that only faithful biblical preaching can satisfy.

I've found that I can preach even about the most sticky subject, as long as I balance it with good news. We did a two-part Saturday night series, one on heaven and the other on hell.

We introduced the subject of the afterlife by relating near-death experiences from popular literature. I wasn't prepared to say these experiences were real, but I pointed out they often paralleled the biblical teachings on death and the afterlife. The evening on heaven was well received.

But the next week, I said, "What I didn't tell you last week was there are other near-death experiences described in the literature that are not so pleasant. In fact, it's incredible how much these experiences parallel what the Scriptures say about hell."

I could tell people were uncomfortable in that second session, but they listened intently.



From the book Growing Your Church Through Evangelism and Outreach. Copyright © 1996 by Christianity Today International/LEADERSHIP.


_________________
bill schnippert

 2006/12/7 9:01Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
They tell us that "God made us this way."



Plainly said, if they think they were born that way they need to be born again.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2006/12/7 10:27Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: bubbawho?

bro Bub
welcome back bro.

Quote:
but seriously, i have great difficulty condemning people of sexual sins who in many cases are acting upon completely natural, human motivations and feelings. They tell us that "God made us this way." Moreover Jesus tells us that those without sin should cast the first stones. get me to the back of the line here. sometimes it is best to convey the unconditional love of Jesus and let the conviction of sin come on its own to each believer through the Holy Ghost.



bro, i agree with you to some degree about people acting on their natural desires as it pertains to sexuality. i would not say God made them/us that way but we became that way as a result of the fall of man. We have become depraved. Sigmund Freud i once thought was full of it. He had issues but one thing he said was that we are driven by these base urges, and we need to clamp down on them. he is right. we are depraved and hence we act crazy sometimes. the homosexual is in a sense born that way inasmuch as he/she is born depraved and thus predisposed to sin. the same goes for all of us and the propensity to sin which we all have. we were born that way, not made that way and like Preach P said we need to be born again. i'm not throwing stones here but simply saying that we need to also remember we ourselves have our own issues and sins to deal with also.

also some people need to get confronted with their sin in a John the baptist or Jesse Morrell sort of way and others don't need to be compelled as much like Zaccheus or nicodemus. either way the Love of our Lord is shown forth.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/12/7 12:35Profile
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Quote:
Plainly said, if they think they were born that way they need to be born again.



I also heard it said that "Mother nature is just your sister in a fallen world" - I like that.

If anyone's interested, "Will He be the Lord over our sexuality" is a sermon by Sy Rogers on iTunes, you can find it under "Lighthouse Teaching Podcast".

 2006/12/7 12:39Profile









 Re:

compton, ironman, and all

thanks for your comments. one problem i have with this issue is that homosexuality occurs throughout the animal kingdom. it is somehow instinctual or genetic for some percentage.

why? who knows. should it be encouraged? certainly not. but i know God don't make no junk, and some people are being made this way.

bub

 2006/12/7 13:50
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Bubbaguy,

Quote:
homosexuality occurs throughout the animal kingdom



True, but then again animals are also engaging in infancticide and even cannibalism of their young. The animal kingdom is not an acceptable benchmark for morality even by humanist standards.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/12/7 16:02Profile





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