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vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Questions on eternity

Some questions on things of eternity.

1. Is there such a place as "heaven" and are we going there when we die.

2. Is there such a place as "hell" and are the lost going to literaly burn there for all of eternity?

3. Will anybody be lost for all of eternity?
1 Timothy 4:10 says
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

So can he have the title "Saviour of all men" if all men are not saved???

moreover in chapter 2:4 paul states that God "... will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
and it says in Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

So if the Father works all things after His own will; will anyone be lost for eternity?

4. Is salvation something we have now? Or is it something that we will receive in the future?

It says in 1Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

To me that sounds like something to be received in the future. If this is true, then the argument of OSAS/losing your salvation, doen't make any sense if it you do not yet have anything to keep or lose.

Now the Bible does say that we must be born again. but what exactly does that have to do with salvation? they definatly arn't the same thing. and once we are born again we are "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14. Then those who continue and perservere in the Spirit will be saved "he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 10:22

I would appreciate your input and ideas on these questions. PLEASE BACK UP WHAT YOU SAY WITH SCRIPTURE! Thanks

 2006/11/22 18:52Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re: Questions on eternity

Vico, just a quick response...

answer to Q1: yes, some of us will;
Jn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come
again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye
may be also.

and

MAT 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.

which answers Q2 and 3

He is the saviour of all men but a lot of people reject His offer of salvation and so He rejects them on judgement day

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

MAT 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him
will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
MAT 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also
deny before my Father which is in heaven.

God wants to save us but many don't want to be saved, what more can He do? He's given us free will, He's told us what we deserve (Rom 6:23 for the wages of sin is death...) and He's offered us a way out through His Son (...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord), to force us into heaven would mean there was no point in Jesus dying for us and to remove our freedom to choose hell.

Q4 we are saved from God's wrath which will come, that is now and in the future, He will never pour out His wrath on us who are saved, discipline us, yes, allow us to go through difficulty, yes but His wrath? no, we are saved from that.

To be born again is to have our Spirit come alive, In Eden Adam's spirit died when he went against God's law 'on that day you shall surely die' and we must be born again, that is our Spirit becomes alive and we are no longer natural but spiritual (but we still have to put to death the natural Romans ch 6,7 and 8)

I Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can
he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
I Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he
himself is judged of no man.

Sorry this is just a quick answer, I'm sure more people will give better replies than this, some of your questions are debated on past topics, it will be worth searching them out

Ste


_________________
Ste

 2006/11/23 0:46Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Questions on eternity

Quote:
So can he have the title "Saviour of all men" if all men are not saved???



Think you answered that one yourself within the context;

Quote:
moreover in chapter 2:4 paul states that God "... will have all men to be saved, and to [b]come unto[/b] the knowledge of the truth."



No such thing as a 'forced conversion' in this estimate.

Quote:
and it says in Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also [b]we have obtained an inheritance[/b], being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"



Who receives an inheritance? Hint, 1 John 3 through 5 has a repetition emphasized.

Quote:
So if the Father works all things after His own will; will anyone be lost for eternity?



[i]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![/i]
Mat 23:37

[i]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/i] Joh 3:19

[i]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.[/i] Luk 13:3 (and all the surrounding context)

Quote:
4. Is salvation something we have now? Or is it something that we will receive in the future?

Quote:
To me that sounds like something to be received in the future. If this is true, then the argument of OSAS/losing your salvation, doen't make any sense if it you do not yet have anything to keep or lose.



Both, but a son can still leave home ... As was mentioned, there is a great deal spoken to this throughout the site, try a search on OSAS. My simple argument would be that of [i]continuance[/i], believing is an action, a response, a love, a joy, an obedience, you could say it is a marriage of these, amongst many;

[i]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.[/i] Joh 10:27-28

[i]Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.[/i] 1Pe 1:9

And in John, "I, My, them, they" are very explanatory. Just as 'sheep nature', if you are familiar with sheep is. Not known for their keen intellect for one thing ... ;-)
Quote:
Now the Bible does say that we must be born again. but what exactly does that have to do with salvation? they definatly arn't the same thing.


Au contraire!

Quote:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [b]Except[/b] a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Joh 3:3

Salvation [i][b]is[/b][/i] to be reborn, born from above;

[i]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot [u]inherit[/u] the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[/i] 1Co 15:50 (Note the underscored word again.)

[i]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [b]Except[/b] a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he [u]cannot[/u] enter into the kingdom of God.[/i] Joh 3:5

Not exactly sure of your intentions or motivations here nor will I pry into them, but on this point there is an unnecessary dividing, make that a impossible dividing. Something that occurred to me hinges around;

[i]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.[/i] Rom 10:9

One of the great dangers that I think we have fallen into in this day is to excerpt without context and to exegesis in isolation. This verse above often used in such a pretext fashion as to forgoe all that surrounds it in it's context and displace it from the whole of the scriptures.

The underlying assumption that seems to be taken from it is the emphesis on "confess". The "sinners prayer" in our parlance is not outright useless, but is often bandied about too casually in my honest opinion. There is something of a suspicion that I have wondered about; That the one 'leading a sinner' in this fashion is possibly doing just that, [i]leading[/i] ... The question, "Have you led anyone to the Lord before?" can carry with it the self satisfaction that can often be heard by some with their attributes of "thousands", even the few, that [i]they[/i] have done this great and mighty thing. Please don't misunderstand, there is nothing more incredible than to have part in seeing another's eye's opened, planting, sowing, all the illustrative and expressive words used of workers. What I am alluding to is the pride of "I".

Maybe if there was more attention paid to what a 'birth' is by definition, it would stop the idea of putting the end in the middle of a progress, if not right at the beginning.

I don't know, there is something of our meddling that is bothersome on this point. Must we be present and the 'hearers' of confessing? More so the judges of purity of the words uttered; "Is he\she sincere?" or just the group think manipulation of 'decision cards' to sign en masse.

[i]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/i] Joh 6:44

Is this ultimately not personal, intimate? We can and do confess all kinds of things casually, unthinkingly, stirred up by the emotions, prompted by the 'moment' and not all of that is by necessity ... [i]off[/i]. What is revival but God entering into our midst and causing a reaction by evidence of His Presence? What took place on the day of Pentecost but the same, surely it wasn't just clever words or Peter's natural ability that manipulated a 'confession'.

[i]And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee ... And he taught in their synagogues ... And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears... And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth... And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.[/i] Luke 4

[i]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:[/i] 1Co 2:4

If this ended up being a launching pad to just get out a bothersome element, my apologies for going off track. But to confess is to confess continuously, to believe is to go on believing, to be born anew is for something to actually take place, not some illusionary or arbitrary, abstract notion.

What is the real definition of salvation? Saved from what, saved unto ... what?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/11/23 9:08Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Thanks brother! My thoughts exactly. these questions were some that were pointed to me by someone who dosn't share my same views. just wanted to hear what you guys might have to share, so once again I thank you. God bless.

 2006/11/23 22:44Profile





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