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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Anyone familiar with the Hebrew or Messianic movement?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
However, he does call them Judaisers! He wants them to go forward, and yes absolutely not backward to paganism, but specifically not to the side--Judaism.



Whether it be carnal rituals or fleshly sins- flesh is flesh is flesh is flesh. Paul emphasized 'having begun in the Spirit.' This is the key. We are free to observe certain things if we with- but by no means to they contribute to our salvation. I think the emphasis has to be on the Spirit and not on the beggarly things that have no power to transform lives.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 14:18Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Just another thought on Sabbath. I generally point out that this is the one commandment that best illustrates man's rebellion and the presence of Original Sin. How could it be that man who is generally lazy by nature would rebel against a commandment to rest? This is rebellion for rebellion's sake.

Think about it. You are commanded not to work 7 days a week, but to rest one day. It is almost unconscionable to think a person would [i]want[/i] to work 7 days a week. Yet, folk tried to break this commandment and at one time it was the death penalty to break it. This is merely man's rebellion. It showed up as soon as Israel came out of Egypt. Sin had entered the human race and man was now postured to rebel against commands that even worked to his/her own benefit. Who would not want to rest 1 day and no one be able to tell you to work? Imagine a command at your job in which you are FORCED to take a day off WITH pay (that was Israel's experience in the Wilderness). Folk took the attitude and decided they'll take a day off when they feel like it and there is no one going to be telling them what to do! Amazing!


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 14:25Profile









 2 cents

here it is,

I'm a Jew.born a Jew, raised in the faith, Hebrewed schooled, Bar-Mitzvahed, etc etc.

guess what?

I'm a still a Jew, except one crucial Difference, I believe that Messiah has come.

Now, what does it MEAN to be a Jew?

That you are a child of Abraham, "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness".

Child of Abraham, follower of Jesus.

still a Jew.

People call the faith, Christianity, and bless God for that, coz people need words to delineate where a person IS, but I really believe in soul and in heart, that what is New Testament Christianity is Messianic Judaism, minus of course rites, rituals, laws, etc etc ....all the stuff that comprises "religion", and thats where the Pharisee's went wrong. They were always concerned about the outside stuff, and you see it today with the neo-pharisees within the Body of Christ, concerned with the outside appearances, and the man-made "rules" of Christian "CULTURE". Its dross and garbage, and the early disciples of Jesus picked right up on it.

Look at the edict the Jerusalem Council sent up north to Antioch, 'abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, abstain from the meat of strangled animals, don't be drinking blood, and avoid sexual immorality".

that was it.

and before this Jesus Messiah, said the two greatest commandments were, "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, sterength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."

and this, believe that Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved.

Abraham believed God. I believe God. I am a child of Abraham, and a follower of Jesus, and I'm a still a Jew.

contradictions in that?

none.

now the word "Judaiser's" is used....you know what I think a better word is?

religionists.

oh yes, they love rules, they love outward appearances, they just love to point fingers in self righteous indignation at others, they just love religion.

and I say it again and again and again,

religion kills,Jesus saves.....

you know what else I love?

The Vine that you all have been grafted into and recieve Nurturing Sap.......never forget that you, oh wild shoot have been grafted into the Vine, that some might deride as the Old Covenant, don't let pride get the best of you, make Israel envious of so great a salvation.

my two cents..lol

Happy Thanksgving, neil

 2006/11/22 16:21
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

RobertW,

Perhaps I was too strong in my language. I really don't care if my friend keeps the Sabbath. According to Romans 14--Praise God! He is not overly dogmatic about this. However, much of the information he has given me is extremely dogmatic! This is not right. I am not dogmatic about no Sabbath whatsoever. And I don't keep it to the Lord--Praise God!

Where do you end up drawing the lines with Sabbath keeping? Just no work, no hard work, no payed work, no nothing at all (what the Pharisees taught). I realize that I am talking apples and oranges here--flesh against Spirit. But these are real hard questions for those that really really seek to please God with their lives have problems answering. I myself, I've answered it. Does Hebrews not teach that Christ is our rest from works? Perhaps our Sabbath rest.

By the way, I had real trouble with turning that link you gave me into a PDF...too long to read in one sitting. If someone could email it to me that would be excellent.


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Neil Long

 2006/11/22 16:27Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re: 2 cents

Hey really appreciate your 2 cents :) Happy Thanksgiving back to you.

I have zero against Jews. It's our foundation really. I just wonder why people want to continue in bondage be/c thats what Paul said it is.

Jesus and all aposltes--Jews. Praise God!

I don't think I'm using Judaizer as a swear word. Nor Christianized Jew. Please understand, I don't want to be overcritical or abusive here. I'll say the same thing with Christianized pagans--like most of America. They need to repent and really believe and bless God they will be saved.

And you are right, there are plenty of Christian Pharisees. I'm not trying to me over general. I'm just trying to find some sort of balance, if that's what is needed. Full throttle into Judaism seems to be a mistake, a regression. I'm not talking the cultre, I'm talking religion/ritual. Fine, your a jew, you know the culture--COOL! I'd love to attend a seder (spelling?). And God has blessed you with knowledge of the Jewish Messiah--the Savior of the world. Glory to GOD! I think were trying to say the same things.

I just want to be really careful that people aren't tricked into something the bible really cautions against and perhaps forbids--according to my understanding, which I've already stated isn't what I'd like it to be.


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Neil Long

 2006/11/22 16:40Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I myself, I've answered it. Does Hebrews not teach that Christ is our rest from works? Perhaps our Sabbath rest.



Yes. Christ is our rest, I think, but at issue is still the individual's weak conscience. If the person in question believes it a sin to not keep Sabbath then it will take time for them to be fully convinced in their own minds. They need to keep their conscience clear as they walk with the Lord. This, I think, is the issue of Romans 14.

What you [i]don't[/i] want happening is folk convincing your friend that they MUST keep certain ordinances that have been fulfilled in the New Covenant. A consistent and good study of the New Testament and an ongoing study of the scriptures will keep the conscience 'good' and will strengthen it (as it were) to understand there is liberty in Christ. More rules does not mean more spiritual.

God Bless,

-Robert


P.S. The thread may be too large to be made a PDF. You may have to skim through the relevant areas.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 16:44Profile









 Bro (or Sis?) NLONG

If you knew me, you would know how UNculturally Jewish I am. I'm so American...for instance my favorite holidays are the 4th of July and tommorrow, Thankgiving, and my idea of a good time (outside of a house intercessory prayer meeting) is to tailgate outside White Sox Park, before a game, barbequeing brats and ribeyes washed down with A+W Root Beer with my son.

I love American culture, I love America, the part of American culture I love is the FREE exchange of ideas, EVEN if you disagree with these views. As a country, thats what makes us great, you dont have to FEAR to forward the ideas you think are TRUE, thats what makes this country GREAT.

I loved growing up in the synagogue, studying Torah, studying Hebrew, my bar-mitzvah, I will never forget, thats when a young man is called up before the assembly and the Torah, the first five Books of Moses, are in a parchment scroll, they are unfurled and the young man reads the portion that week in Hebrew with the Rabbi next to him, I read from Numbers. I was 13.

Its funny, because at the same time, my mother was "into" black culture (she was VERY "into" black culture as my sister is bi-racial) but anyway I used to go to black churches also at this time, and I just loved them! Loved them, there would be these big black women,dressed in their finest clothes and they would welcome me so nicely, and then when the preacher began to speak, or the choir sing, many women would get slain in the Spirit, and run up and down the aisles praising God, in English, or in tongues known only to God.....this just tripped me out, and I loved it....and then when the preacher spoke, he would do "calm to storm" preaching....which would mesmerize me, it was so different from the synagogue, but it all felt very similiar.

Then two years later, a bunch of "Jesus Freaks" rented a multi room, large house across from our building and I felt DRAWN to them, I was 15. So I decided to re-read the Bible, and instead of starting in the New Testament, I started in the Old and was planning on going into the New. One day I was reading from Genesis in their backyard, by myself, quietly and the Spirit of the Lord came over me, and I gathered a bunch of old bricks together, like Abraham, and I was going to make a fire offering to the Lord, just a bunch of twigs, coz I wasn't aware of the Sacrificial Offering of Jesus, all I knew was that I wanted to praise Him in the way I knew how.

anyway, one of the well-meaning, but totally immature zealots saw me doing this and just LAID into me on a theological basis. Today I understand what he was saying, but he was maybe 25, and full of zeal, and didnt understand that what I was doing was starting to walk on the road to Emmaus....I didnt know I was, I was just full of love for God, and full of the Holy Spirit, though I didnt know of this Gift OR of what Jesus did...yet.

But this brother laid into me so bad, and with such vehement zeal, that he literally drove me away from Messiah for 27 years, because what I thought, felt, at that moment was this: to accept Jesus as Messiah, does that mean I am no longer a Jew?

and he told me, yes, you will no longer be a Jew.

so I walked away from there and never returned to that communal group home of "Jesus Freaks".

Now today, after reading and pouring over Scripture, Old and New Testament I realize, in the Leading of the Holy Ghost, how wrong that man was.

Oh he was full of zeal, he just KNEW, and rather than discerning and prayerfully considering his words, rather than nurturing a young man, a child of Israel, a child of Abraham, as he IS ALSO a child of Abraham, he let his spiritual immaturity stumble a an embryonic seeker.

I bear no ill will, but I am very wary of zealots, and very circumspect about the words I use with my fellow Jews, who do not know Messiah.

hear me, they think, that once they accept Jesus as Messiah, that means that they are no longer Jews.......right or wrong (wrong), thats what they think, and they would rather die, than renounce the faith. What they should be led to realize is that Jesus is a continuation of the Faith, not a dimunition of the Faith.

Who knows, maybe America one day will be like Germany. Jewish culture once flourished in Germany. Circa 1880, if you would have told a German Jew, that one day a man would arise from the ranks of the people, and throw us into concentration camps and burn us, they would have said you were crazy.

But than again, if you told them that in 1948, out of the ashes of hitlers hell, the State of Israel would be born, they would REALLY thought you were goofy.

Who knows which way the Wind of the Spirit will blow?

All I know is this; if I wanted to today, I could get on an El Al Jet, fly to Tel Aviv, and claim my citizenship as a returning Jew to the State of Israel......did you know that?.....any Jew in the world has that right....irrevocable, just like the Covenant Yahweh made with His people.

But there would be a lot of heck to pay, the minute I stood up in synagogue and said that Yeshua is Messiah.....ahahhahahahhahh! Glory!!

and no more tailgating at White Sox park!!!

happy Thanksgiving again, neil

 2006/11/22 17:35
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Bro (or Sis?) NLONG

RobertW said:

Quote:
I generally point out that this is the one commandment that best illustrates man's rebellion and the presence of Original Sin. How could it be that man who is generally lazy by nature would rebel against a commandment to rest? This is rebellion for rebellion's sake.


I'd say that there's more to it. The Sabbath Law portrayed a principle that man simply could not accept: You can trust God to provide. Man’s inability to trust God was already evident in the Sinai Desert – where the Israelites were instructed NOT to gather manna on the Sabbath.

The Sabbath laws were designed, not just for physical rest, but to exercise and build faith – a tangible expression of the ultimate rest in God: salvation. Sabbath rest is the way we love God with all our hearts.

Legalism is the violation of the principle of the Sabbath law. Legalism is a symptom of man’s inability to believe God, to put their trust in him, as if the cross wasn’t good enough. In place, man tries, with endless, exhausting effort, to attain God’s forgiveness and mercy in their own efforts. Legalism is rebellion against the forth commandment. It is the inability to enter into God’s rest provided through the cross.

While the Pharisees and scribes were meticulous about Sabbath laws they were themselves unable to rest in God’s salvation. Neither were they able to trust in God’s temporal provision - as evidenced in their inability to keep the Sabbath Year, or the Year of Jubilee.

Much of our Sunday religious activity is actually an expression of rebellion against God’s Sabbath rest.


Do these thoughts tie in with the Messianic Movement?

Diane



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Diane

 2006/11/22 18:03Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

I think that my friend keeps the Sabbath voluntarily and by Romans 14 I'm good with that. He will fellowship with me and I with him and there's unity in Christ. We challenge each other and are simply trying to work out our faith. At one time, my conscience was pricked when I did any work on Sunday, thinking Sunday was at least keeping one day separate. I live in a very conservative Amish/Mennonite community in Indiana. Now I see that that's just rediculous. The Sabbath is Saturday because that's what it's been, presumably since the beginning of the Law. God picked the day be/c he rested on the 7th, not the 8th or 1st. Now that said, I really don't care if Christians keep Sunday apart.

My big question is if the Sabbath is to be kept, should one not keep the entire thing, which includes no work, limited travel, feasts and etc? If the Law is to be lived then the rest seems mandatory to me. Maybe I'm short sighted, too black and white or something?


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Neil Long

 2006/11/27 12:39Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Diane's: Much of our Sunday religious activity is actually an expression of rebellion against God’s Sabbath rest.



I think there is a lot of truth to this also.

Quote:
Legalism is a symptom of man’s inability to believe God, to put their trust in him, as if the cross wasn’t good enough. In place, man tries, with endless, exhausting effort, to attain God’s forgiveness and mercy in their own efforts. Legalism is rebellion against the forth commandment. It is the inability to enter into God’s rest provided through the cross.



Interesting also is that the conscience of those who 'work' believe that it is the way of salvation. So there needs to be some instruction taking place. This is one of the dangers of our approach to revival- is that in constantly challenging a person's salvation you almost force them in a sense into salvation by works. We run the risk of mistaking 'resting' in Christ with being 'asleep' in mediocrity. If folk are not 'troubled' all the time there must be something [i]wrong[/i] with them; when in fact maybe there is something [i]right[/i] with them.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/27 13:08Profile





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