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NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Anyone familiar with the Hebrew or Messianic movement?

I can appreciate preachers that attempt to put the hebrew meaning or context back into the reading of scripture. I think there's a lot there that can help our understanding--be it hebrew wordpictures, jots and tittles, etc.

They claim when Jesus said "I came to fulfill the Law" that means to make it perfect or understandable. So people could keep it how it ought to be kept. Most Christians today would say that when Jesus said "fulfill" he meant lived and therefore completed it.

OK, my point in all this is to say, I feel that the issues are being confused a little. They say we need to keep the Law to the exclusion of many epistle that says "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? WHY ARE YOU GOING BACK TO THE OLD COVENANT?"

Anyone have 2 cents to throw in here?


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Neil Long

 2006/11/22 10:57Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Anyone familiar with the Hebrew or Messianic movement?

Hi NLONG,

Quote:
Anyone have 2 cents to throw in here?



You can find a good intro into the subject in a thread I started in 2004 called [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1532&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]THE JEWISH ROOTS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. [/url] I am fairly familiar with the Messianic Movement as I studied the subject at the Jewish Roots Institute of Kansas City.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 11:04Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Anyone familiar with the Hebrew or Messianic movement?

Quote:
They claim when Jesus said "I came to fulfill the Law" that means to make it perfect or understandable.



There are a variety of interpretetions of this by various Messianic Jews. Some will say He came to 'rightly interpret' the law, but reject what we would call [i]antinomianism[/i] as a consequence of the Church moving towards Rome (as it were).


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 11:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Anyone familiar with the Hebrew or Messianic movement?

Quote:
So people could keep it how it ought to be kept.



It is my opinion that many I have heard have an incomplete understanding of the purpose of the Law and others within the Church error also in falling into antinomianism. We are called to be born again and walk in the Spirit. Having 'begun' in the Spirit we are to continue to walk in the Spirit. When believers walk in the Spirit they fulfill the law also. This does not mean they keep the ceremonial aspects of the Old Covenant Law. I'm mixing terms here and don't mean to, but the Old Covenant was never for a Gentile to begin with. The 'Law of Moses' was added because of transgressions. Folk were not walking in accordance with the light of conscience in that they had the Law of God written upon their hearts (Romans 2). The law had to be 'added' in order to shed light back upon man's deteriorating conscience (If I could say that).

The NEW Covenant is much better than the Old. We are under a New covenant with better promises, etc. This does not mean that the personality of God contained in the Old Covenant law is to be rejected. It is an accurate representation of the character of God that we are supposed to walk in. We cannot do this in the flesh by keeping carnal ordinances, etc. We have to walk in the Spirit and have no confidence in the flesh. As we do this rightly we live lives against which there is no law. We walk in the peson of Jesus Christ and He was the fulfillment of the law. The truth that was in Him becomes the truth that is in us if we are in Him (abiding in Him).

hope that helps a bit...


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 11:20Profile









 Re:

I don't know if this is the same thing I have encountered, but my experience with these folks is they claim that we need to adhere to the Old Testament Law in order to please God. What it produces is a works based salvation theology. It's nothing more than what Paul was fighting against... the Judaisers. Paul spoke extensively about these people, and went to great lengths to expose their error and show that you are not saved by keeping the Law, or by circumcision... or any other work. We are saved by grace alone. No man can keep the Law, that's the whole point of the Law in the first place... to show us that we are fallen.

Funny thing is... I've not met one of these people who keeps the Law as strictly as the Hebrews did... once again demonstrating their utter failure in the eyes of the Law.

Study Romans... Galations... Hebrews... etc.

Dont get snared by this group.

Krispy

 2006/11/22 11:20
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It's nothing more than what Paul was fighting against... the Judaisers. Paul spoke extensively about these people, and went to great lengths to expose their error and show that you are not saved by keeping the Law, or by circumcision... or any other work.



I think in a lot of ways they are going a different route to try to correct some of the issues that we often discuss here on SI, but they are often going about it in 'the flesh'. The flesh cannot make perfect what the Spirit has begun. It is impossible. The see a lot of lawlessness in the 'church' and as a result, I think, have taken this line. However, it is the wrong prescription for the problem.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 11:24Profile









 Re:

Robert... I think you're right. Legalism in place of holiness.

Krispy

 2006/11/22 11:34
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Quote:
Dont get snared by this group.



Yes, I am a fairly skeptical person by nature, but I appreciate the admonition! I have a good friend, who keeps the Sabbath. And he is poking around in this teaching. When asked why I don't keep it, I sighted Galations. He said that the teaching there is that the Galations don't go back to paganism. However, he does call them Judaisers! He wants them to go forward, and yes absolutely not backward to paganism, but specifically not to the side--Judaism.

Now that said, I don't feel like I have the best of all grasps on this subject. Though I do believe that to go to Christianized Judaism would be against the will of God due to the Pauline epistles.

RobertW,
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.


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Neil Long

 2006/11/22 13:04Profile









 Re:

Paul preached freedom. Freedom from sin, and freedom from the Law. ALL of the Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

I dont know how anyone can read Galations and come away thinking that we are required to observe the Sabbath. Blind people, I guess.

But ya know what? The same people that will preach long and hard against those who insist we need to observe the Sabbath will turn around and insist that tithing is for the believer today.

Thats called hypocricy in my book. We are either free from all of the Law, or we are free from none of it. You can't pick and choose. Paul taught a lot about Christian giving, but not once did he ever suggest that tithing was part of NT church life.

What do these modern day Judaisers (thats what they are... let's call them by the correct name!) do with Peter's vision of the sheet filled with all kinds of creatures... and then God commanded him to eat of ALL of them. Do you think pigs werent included? Or what about Paul's teachings about meat sacrificed to alters... eating of that was forbidden by the Law, yet Paul taught that if you eat it with thanksgiving to the Lord... eat till you've had your fill. Just dont cause a brother to stumble because of your freedom.

It's all so simple and so obvious, it's a wonder people get things like this wrong.

Krispy

 2006/11/22 13:56
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Now that said, I don't feel like I have the best of all grasps on this subject. Though I do believe that to go to Christianized Judaism would be against the will of God due to the Pauline epistles.



When Paul spoke of the Church in Ephesians he called it "One NEW Man." Not a modification of the old- but a NEW man.

As for the Sabbath I think we have liberty either way. If I want to observe Sabbath I can- no problem. I do not have the right to press others to do so.

One of the issues at hand is [i]expression[/i] of our faith. The Messianics want to express their faith within a Hebraic framework as it relates to the Old Testament revelation. Many see this as a better alternative than adopting modified pagan rituals (as they may call them) as a means of expressing the Christian faith. The Greek influence over the Church after 325 was enormous. It started sooner than that, but it essentially brought us the need for the Protestant Reformation. A popular saying is that the Church was not born in Athens- it was born in Jerusalem. I think that captures the issues pretty well.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/22 14:14Profile





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