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Discussion Forum : SermonIndex Announcements : A QUAKE THAT SHOOK ENGLAND by brother Greg

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enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2648
Nottingham, England

 Re: A QUAKE THAT SHOOK ENGLAND by Greg Gordon

And he told the people that the Scriptures were the touchstone and judge by which they were to try all doctrines, religions, and opinions... I.... was made to cry out and say, 'Oh, no, it is not the Scriptures,' ... But I told them what it was, namely, the Holy Spirit, by which the holy men of God gave forth the Scriptures... for it led into all Truth, and so gave the knowledge of all Truth. For the Jews had the Scriptures, and yet resisted the Holy Ghost, and rejected Christ... and took upon them to try their doctrines by the Scriptures, but erred in judgement, and did not try them aright, because they tried without the Holy Ghost.

End quote.

Does that quote mean what I think it means?

Is George Fox saying that we are not to try all doctrines, religions and opinions by the Scriptures?

Indeed, we do need God's Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, but what then of the Bereans in Acts 17 who searched the scriptures daily?

I have read articles about George Fox in the past. Some were for him, some against.

I don't accept when people disregard the word of God in favour of 'hearing' from the Holy Spirit, especially if what they hear contradicts the scriptures.

God bless.

 2007/7/17 7:59Profile
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
Does that quote mean what I think it means?

Is George Fox saying that we are not to try all doctrines, religions and opinions by the Scriptures?


I don't think so. I think what he is saying here is that without the Holy Ghost we are in no place to try all doctrines, religions, and oppinions. The heart of what he is saying is that without the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth the scriptures are dead and lifeless, and we won't be able to try things aright because we wont see the scriptures aright.
And that's an oppinion with which I whole heartedly agree.

Quote:
Just a question, but have you guys really studied George Fox's theology? If you have, you would be more careful before calling him a prophetic voice.


God is very gracious with lack of understanding and ignorant error. Someone being full of the Holy Ghost such as George Fox most certainly was is not dependant on how good their theology is or how good thei doctrine is. Of course there are fundamental truths that [b]MUST[/b] be in place but aside from those I have been extremely amazed at how gracious God is with ignorance.
As I've looked at the lives of many of the mighty men of God throughout history I've found that I have some manner of disagreement with pretty much all of them, but even so, I still cry out "God, make me like those men were!"
I don't think that God's purpose in preserving their life stories is so that we might copy their theology but rather that we would see through their [i]lives[/i] what God can do through a man.
Perhaps George Fox was a little out of balance. So was Moody, and Finney, and the Wesleys, and you name a person, I can almost promise you they're off somewhere in what they believe but so are every on of us. Let us be thankful that God is so gracious with [i]our[/i] ignorance and ask Him to continue to guide us into all truth.

Quote:
What he claimed were Spirit inspired insights from the inner Light were often nothing more than shallow misinterpretations of the Scripture.


It might be safer to let God be the judge of that.
Quote:
I fear some of you have taken a Ravenhillian romanticism towards anybody who does anything peculiar in the name of God, without trying the spirits to see if they are of God.


I'm sure you know who Henry Drummond was. He was a good friend of Moody's. An Irish (or perhaps Scottish? I don't remember exactly.) evangelist that was mightily used of God and Moody said he was the most Christ-like man that he (Moody) knew. He was a theistic evolutionist. Honestly, that blows my mind that God could and would use a man that believed such lies. I have alot of respect for Drummond, not because of his beliefs but because of his heart towards God. I've noticed that there is alot of nit-picking about the theology of men of the past that have gone down in history as mighty men of God and I think that that [i]too[/i] is out of balance. A mature christian should be able to stand on his own feet as far as what he believes. I can have mountains of admiration for George Fox without embracing all of his theology. Our responsability is to search the scriptures ourselves to know what we believe. And if we come up with something different than someone else let us remember that even though we might have a better understanding about a scripture than they did we need to consider the idea that they just might love the Lord more than I do.

note: for those of you who might have seen this a little earlier, I had to post this and then go back and edit to be able to respond to two posts in one. I wasn't going back and adding more as an after thought :-)

[edit] I meant to say this earlier and forgot to. I think that the reason that Greg posts these things is to lift up their lives as an inspiration to us, and not as an endorsement of everything that they believed. Thank you Greg, your articles and The Old Paths have been a tremedous blessing!


_________________
Jeff Mollman

 2007/7/17 8:49Profile
hisremnant
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana

 Re:

Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!!

Perhaps Kingjimmy would like to enlighten us as to the foul doctrines which Fox believed. Unless of course you mean things such as this.

George Fox taught one subject very strongly which he faced much opposition and that is purity and holiness of the Christian life. Hear the lament of Fox over this opposition to the truth: "But they could not endure to hear of purity, and of victory over sin and the devil. They said they could not believe any could be free from sin on this side of the grave

That is just the truth.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

 2007/7/17 10:13Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2648
Nottingham, England

 Re:

hisremnant,

I would just like to point out that kingjimmy never mentioned the phrase 'foul doctrines' in his post.

Just curious.

God bless.

 2007/7/17 11:02Profile
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
I would just like to point out that kingjimmy never mentioned the phrase 'foul doctrines' in his post.


Thank you Enid.
I also want to say that I'm not trying to discredit anyone's post or excuse false teachers. When we look at someone's life it very quickly becomes obvious whether or not they are sincere and truly love the Lord. The difference between people like George Fox and the modern faith healers is painfully obvious even if George had some areas where he was a little off.


_________________
Jeff Mollman

 2007/7/17 11:17Profile
hisremnant
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana

 Re:

Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!

Perhaps foul doctrine was not said and i overstated a little. Here is what was said by Kingjimmy:

he was far from being sound Biblically. And his errant theology reflected itself practically too, so as to make him do things that frankly weren't very becoming of any man of God. What he claimed were Spirit inspired insights from the inner Light were often nothing more than shallow misinterpretations of the Scripture.

Hisremnant:

So Fox was unsound biblically his theology was errant. He behaved in an unbecoming manner and he made shallow misinterpretations of the Scripture. i think that might be even more demeaning of Fox than the way i paraphrased it.

i am not rying to discredit anyone i am just asking for someone to prove their statements.

Point is i am still waiting for Kingjimmys evidence as to the statements he made.

Blessings Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

 2007/7/17 19:12Profile
hisremnant
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana

 Re:

Im still waiting King Jimmy

 2007/9/7 7:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

George Fox was a unique character and I regard him as apostle but he made some statements which if another had made them would have been very dubious.

Robert Barclay wrote what has come to be regarded as the standard theology of the original quakers. (although we have had quakers on the site here who burned with animosity towards Barclay).

I think Jimmy has in mind the Quaker position with regard to the final supremacy of the Scriptures. Fox and Barclay refused to say that the scriptures were the final authority. They wouldn't use that exact phrase because they believed it took away from the supremacy of Christ's Spirit to guide his church.

Barclay, who was a younger associate of Fox and who enjoyed Foxe's confidence wrote...
THE THIRD PROPOSITION
Concerning the Scriptures.
From these revelations of the Spirit of God to the saints, have proceeded the scriptures of truth, which contain, 1. A faithful historical account of the actings of God's people in divers ages, with many singular and remarkable providences attending them. 2. A prophetical account of several things, whereof some are already past, and some yet to come. 3. A full and ample account of all the chief principles of the doctrine of Christ, held forth in divers precious declarations, exhortations, and sentences, which, by the moving of God's Spirit, were at several times, and upon sundry occasions, spoken and written unto some churches and their pastors: nevertheless, because they are only a declaration of the fountain, and not the fountain itself, therefore they are not to be esteemed the principal ground of all truth and knowledge, nor yet the adequate primary rule of faith and manners. Nevertheless, as that which giveth a true and faithful testimony of the first foundation, they are and may be esteemed a secondary rule, subordinate to the Spirit, from which they have all their excellency and certainty; for as by the inward testimony of the Spirit we do alone truly know them, so they testify, that the Spirit is that guide by which the saints are led into all truth: therefore, according to the scriptures, the Spirit is the first and principal leader. And seeing we do therefore receive and believe the scriptures, because they proceed from the Spirit; therefore also the Spirit is more originally and principally the rule, according to that received maxim in the schools,Propter quod unumquodque est tale, illud ipsum est magis tale. Englished thus: "That for which a thing is such, that thing itself is more such."Barclay, and by inference Fox, also rejected both baptism and holy communion. They also came pretty close to teaching 'justification by sanctification'.

I knew a man who was much like Fox in his dependence upon the Spirit and who sometimes was thought to be weak on the supremacy of the scriptures for truth and life. This man, at one time in his life, was able to reconstruct the entire New Testament. His whole thinking was saturated in the book; Fox was the same. When the book has such a grip on the mind and heart Fox's position is more understandable. Some of his followers said crazy things like "George can speak scripture as well as Paul" but this would not have been Fox's position. His position should be seen, I believe, as an exalting of the work of the Spirit rather than a minimising of the importance of the scripture.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/7 11:20Profile





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