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DocH
Member



Joined: 2006/11/20
Posts: 5


 Re: Catholics saved?

There is a lot of double-speak in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church.

But how is this for starter's?

"The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude"

"The faithful are born anew by baptism"

"Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ"

The Council of Trent in the 16th century placed an ANATHEMA against anyone who believed that you are justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.

The new Catechism quotes the Councel of Trent many times and endorses it's teachings.

Be warned the Catholic church NEVER changes!

 2006/11/20 22:29Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi DocH...

Quote:

DocH wrote:
There is a lot of double-speak in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church.

But how is this for starter's?

"The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude"

"The faithful are born anew by baptism"

"Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ"

The Council of Trent in the 16th century placed an ANATHEMA against anyone who believed that you are justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.

The new Catechism quotes the Councel of Trent many times and endorses it's teachings.

Be warned the Catholic church NEVER changes!

You make a valid point. The doctrine of the Church, no matter how much it is "altered," is inherently [u]false[/u]. There is certainly a great amount of "double-speak" in the Roman Catholic Church. Then again, there is quite a bit in most modern evangelical churches too.

The question, reiterated twice by the original poster, concerns whether or not a Catholic can be saved. In my opinion, ANY person can be saved regardless of how corrupt the organization in which they participate. However, new believers seek the Lord through prayer and the Word of God, they will begin to be led more adequately by the Spirit of God. As many believers can testify, this can sometimes take a little time.

We should be mindful of our manner of speech when confronting individuals that claim a relationship with Jesus Christ yet still attend an obviously flawed denomination. Most Catholics have little understanding of the official doctrines or history of the Church. They simply attend because they have [i]always attended[/i] (at least on Christmas, for weddings and funerals, etc...). The doctrines of the Church are usually not [i]taught[/i] during the mass. Rather, it is demonstrated as a [i]tradition[/i]. We, as evangelical protestants, also have some "traditions" that are handed down by our churches (i.e., the format of a service - opening prayer, praise, worship, offering, announcements, preaching, altar call, closing prayer, etc...). As most of us can testify, long-standing traditions are often hard to break -- and often stand as an obstacle to real revival.

Most former Catholics that I know left the Roman Catholic Church after a desire to truly know God. They read the Word of God and yearned for an intimate relationship with the God of the Word. As they sought the Lord, they noticed certain inconsistencies between the Word and the traditions of the Church. Eventually, a hunger for the truth led them out of the Roman Catholic Church. This is also true of individuals that left several other notorious denominations or religious sects. It is amazing how the grace of God leads us when we truly seek to know the Lord more adequately!

We must be careful, however, that we do not come across as self-righteous when we approach those that claim to be believers but still attend their former churches. We might begin to sound like the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14...
Quote:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The tax collector worked for the pagan Roman Empire. The Pharisee worked for the "true" faith of his day (alongside corrupt religious folk, but also alongside righteous Pharisees such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea). Whenever we speak to Catholics, we must do so with a humble, broken heart. They should not feel as if we are attacking them (or even questioning their salvation). Rather, we should gently point the truth in love.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/11/21 11:10Profile









 Re:

I was going to reply as requested, but some others have done a fine job for me.

I dont need to proove how much I know about the RCC in order to speak out against it. No, I dont have the Catechism memorized... why should I? However, I do know and understand what the RCC teaches, and I have resources available to me (tho it takes me some time) to refute the claim that the RCC teaches salvation by grace. They do not, in fact, in the Council of Trent they curse anyone who does believe in grace alone.

In effect, they curse the Apostles.

The RCC is a false religion. It's no better than Islam, or Mormonism.

Can someone be saved in the RCC? Yes. But not because of the RCC, but in spite of it. They get saved by reading the truth in God's Word. It's amazing that God's Word is right there before their very eyes (tho somewhat corrupted), and yet they are blind.

It's sad because our close friends are Catholic... and tho they are very devoted Catholics, they are lost and blind.

I liked that story about the puppies. It's so true.

It's interesting to note that the person on this thread who is defending the RCC is basing all their reasoning on experiences and feelings. Experiences and feelings mean absolutely nothing if it doesnt line up with the Word. If we're gonna base our theology on experience and feelings then lets throw away the Bible.

Krispy

 2006/11/21 11:52
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

RCC has all of our "christian" terms as "grace", "atonement" ...ect...
However, it is in their definitions of their terms that matters.
Their definitions are not as we know them.

 2006/11/21 11:57Profile









 Re:

Same can be said for the Mormons. Trust me, if you dont know what their definitions are they will eat you alive. If you take them at face value they sound just like the Southern Baptist church down the street. But they are wicked. You have to know what they mean.

It's the same with the RCC.

Krispy

 2006/11/21 13:06
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

And the JWs.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/11/21 16:19Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re: Catholics saved?

Hmm. Where does it say in God's word that you must believe in Grace alone to be saved?

I know the bible does say that you were saved by grace, but when did it ever say you must have the belief in that doctrine? (It doesn't and you all know that)

I think I agree with Chris's idea. "ANY person can be saved regardless of how corrupt the organization in which they participate. However, new believers seek the Lord through prayer and the Word of God, they will begin to be led more adequately by the Spirit of God. As many believers can testify, this can sometimes take a little time."

 2006/11/21 17:27Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1805
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I work with Catholics in the christian bookshop and I do know some born again Catholics but I do find that the Catholics that I do know nothing about Grace and I find I am being analysed all the time!!

I also have some Catholic friends who believe in the gospel of grace, I know some catholics do not even own a bible and I hate there praying to mary!!
Dom


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2006/11/21 18:30Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

It is certainly true that if God wants you, He will find you - even in a "church." After He got me reading my Bible and praying daily, it was only a matter of months before He had me baptized, giving my testimony, heartfully repenting of my sins, off of cigarettes and alcohol (without any kind of drugs or relapse) and totally disgusted with TV. The hard part was that I didn't really know about the Holy Spirit, and since no one really talked much about Him, it took me awhile to find out what had happened. Thankfully He led me to a book on the Holy Spirit by Torrey in the Pastors library.

 2006/11/21 22:40Profile
DocH
Member



Joined: 2006/11/20
Posts: 5


 Re:

Quote:

deltadom wrote:
I work with Catholics in the christian bookshop and I do know some born again Catholics but I do find that the Catholics that I do know nothing about Grace and I find I am being analysed all the time!!

I also have some Catholic friends who believe in the gospel of grace, I know some catholics do not even own a bible and I hate there praying to mary!!
Dom



If they are truly born again then they are NOT Catholics.

I would suggest they are believers who are in transition and are currently attending a Catholic church.

You need to exhort them to get out ASAP.

 2006/11/22 0:32Profile





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