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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Original sin

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 Re: Original Sin

Logic asked

Quote:
Why shouldn't that state of Adam before he sinned be applyed to us?

[b]and [u]so death[/u] passed upon [u]all[/u] men[/b], for that [u]all have sinned[/u]
From Romans 5:12

Quote:
dorcas asked
How, then, do you account for the efficacy of Christ's death?

Logic replied
For all.

I mean, how does it actually work that Christ's death helps all of us, and not say, only the people who'd been alive up till His time on earth?

 2006/12/7 17:09
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Logic asked
Quote:
Why shouldn't that state of Adam before he sinned be applyed to us?

[b]and [u]so death[/u] passed upon [u]all[/u] men[/b], on which [u]all sinned[/u]
From Romans 5:12


The way to understand that is; Adams' sin brought physical death(Romans 8:21).

Spiritual death, no.
We bring the spiritual death upon ourselfs by our own sin.

It is true that [b]all[/b] people choose to [b]sin[/b] and bring the spiritual death on themselves.

However, God cursed all creation to decay(Romans 8:21) and we are aprt of the creation therefore, the flesh decays with all creation.

Quote:
I mean, how does it actually work that Christ's death helps all of us, and not say, only the people who'd been alive up till His time on earth?


That is a faith thing, if I understand the question.
If that, how does it aply to the so called "Original Sin" theory?

 2006/12/7 18:55Profile









 Re: Original sin


OK, before I answer, can I check something with you....?

Is sin spiritual?

 2006/12/8 14:29
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

OK, before I answer, can I check something with you....?

Is sin spiritual?


First & foremost, sin is spiritual.

When David sinned w/Bathsheba, He sinned against God;
[b]Psalm 51:4[/b] [color=990000]Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:[/color]

Another reason is:
[b]Isaiah 59:2[/b] [color=990000]But your perversities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.[/color]

Isaiah 59:2 is the spiritual death that this topic is all about.

Our own sins separate us from God, Not Adams' sin.

If they were separated, they must have been together.
So it is w/us, we were with God in the innocence of childhood.

The Age of Accountability is a reality because of Gods' justice and the Cross.

Of justice, because one shouldn't be charged guilty of an others' sin and if one has no capability of understanding the offence.

Of the Cross, because though an infant may rebel, it has grace; However it isn't because of ignorance but of incomprehension.

When one reaches that age of accountability without knowing God, one will rebel and become separated from God(spiritual death).

This is when the mystery of iniquity prevails, we want to be the god of our own lives and not submit to The One Who created us.

If one reaches that age of accountability knowing God, that one will submit to God and rely on HIM to preserve him as he transitions from that age of accountability and never taste spiritual death.

Though he may stumble, he will not be accounted for it because that fault is covered by Jesus work on the cross(1John 2:2).

 2006/12/8 16:33Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

You can believe in the age of accountability and still believe in original sin.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/8 18:00Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
You can believe in the age of accountability and still believe in original sin.



The age of accountability is completely inconsistent with the idea of original sin.

The two cannot exist together because the doctrine of original sin forbids that children wait until they reach a certain age before they become accountable. According to original sin, we are accountable and guilty for Adam's sin at birth! This leaves no room for a child to come to the "age of accountability" because he is already accountable, guilty, and under the wrath of God from birth.

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
TOTAL DEPRAVITY

I. What it IS NOT
A. Not a: Absolute depravity


Absolute is a synonym for "total" and "utter"
Therefore, your point here is contradictive to what it is.

Quote:
B. Not a: A complete absence of realative good


Then we are able to "choose the good" and again contradictive to "total inability"

Quote:
II. What it is
i. only and always sining


Because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness(Rom 1:18)


Quote:
*B. It is: Negatively
i. total inability
a. man cannot do the good


When a man does not know God, they naturaly can not do the good.

Quote:
b. man cannot understand the good


With out Knowing God they naturaly can not understand the good.

Quote:
c. man cannot desire the good


This is an error, all men desire good, however, their knowlege of good is warped, perverted and selfish because they do not Know God.

Quote:
III. What it does
A. It gives God glory for all His work


It makes God unjust for charging guilt on the ones who have never sinned which is the whole of mankind not yet born after Adam sinned.

The proponents of Original Sin think that man is naturaly sinnful, they forget to acknowlege that with out knowing God one will naturaly do wrong.

Adam, on the otherhand, knew God but still chose to do wrong with out a "sinnful nature", however, he did have flesh that is able to sin which is the term "sinful flesh" that is used in Romans 8:3.

Therefor we must concied that man is born with flesh that is able to sin in a world with temptation.

Sin is universal, not because of an inherited sin nature, but because temptation is universal, and, because when men are tempted, they choose to indulge their own desires, rather than obey the law of God written in their hearts because they don't know God.

It has always been easier to sin than to resist temptation. [b]James 1:12[/b] [color=990000]Blessed is he that endureth temptation.[/color]

[b]Hebrews 2:18[/b] [color=990000]For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted,[/color]

[b]Heb. 12:4[/b] [color=990000]resisted unto blood, striving against sin.[/color]

 2006/12/9 21:12Profile









 Re: Original Sin

Hi Logic,

I'm extremely short of time online at the moment, and cannot gather up [i]all[/i] the inconsistencies of your discussion.

My main objection to your declared position, is that it IS too deistic. Basically, you choose NOT to look across the whole revelation of scripture and change your mind to come in line with God's, instead choosing scriptures from which your thinking can be supported, and (it appears) being willing to not take the others into account at all.

For instance, you have completely ignored my point about Young's use of the definite article to distinguish the nature of sin, from sins.

And, despite Paul's clear statement that sin entered the world through Adam, and thus DEATH passed upon ALL MEN (meaning mankind), you insist in clinging to your imagination (for that is what it is - a [i]stubborness of heart[/i]) that all babies are born free from sin.

You are still using the mindset of a deist, to dissect scripture, rather than [u]the consistency of the written word[/u], and the Holy Spirit's illumination.

I'm sure you have accepted a change of mindset on some things. And it is understandable that 'sin' should be a thorny topic for us all, but the GOSPEL is that the death of Jesus Christ put an end to sin for all who will receive it by faith, and that children are included under their parents' belief system.

Regarding age of accountability, you are confusing a legal term here, which can be applied objectively by observers of a person's life - the signs of whether they are [i]keeping the law[/i] or breaking it, and, the FACT that God sees the heart; even a very small child (less than a year old) knows how to comply or resist guidance, and a one year old can definitely 'sin', if obedience or lack of it, to a reasonable parent's request is taken into account.

Now, you say

Quote:
The proponents of Original Sin think that man is naturaly sinnful, [b]they forget to acknowlege that with out knowing God one will naturaly do wrong[/b].

But this is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of Paul's statement in Romans 7:

7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all [manner of evil] desire. For apart from the law sin [was] dead.

9 [b]I was alive once without the law[/b], but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

10 And the commandment, which [was] to [bring] life, I found to [bring] death.


I agree that man is naturally sinful, and that this sinfulness is elucidated by an acquaintance with the law (the goodness of God), but, as one who does not believe in Original Sin, you are not making sense in the quote above..... even if we rule out the doctrine of Original Sin, and accept your idea that sin only begins with Man's rebellion against God, [i]still[/i] your statement is [b]anti-scriptural[/b].


You see, a person's sense of GUILT is awakened by a knowledge of the goodness of God (through His law), but their SINFULNESS was [i]already[/i] there.

 2006/12/11 11:55
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
The age of accountability is completely inconsistent with the idea of original sin.

Here's how its reconciled in case you'd like to know.

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/QuestionsAndAnswers/ByTopic/86/1622_What_happens_to_infants_who_die/]John Piper on age of accountability[/url]


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/11 12:04Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Hi Logic,


Hello :-)

[b]Romans 5:12[/b] [color=990000]Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.[/color]

Quote:
And, despite Paul's clear statement that sin entered the world through Adam,


I don't disagree tho that.
Sin entered the world in that Adam was the first to sin, nothing more.

Quote:
and thus DEATH passed upon ALL MEN (meaning mankind),


Why do you think I deny this, I explained that this death is physiscal death that passed to all mankind.

Furthermore, the rest of the verse that sais, "[u]Because all sinned[/u]" does not mean that whom ever will be in the futuer from when Adam sinned has already sinned but not yet existing.
That would be reading into the text which is eisogesis.

How can sin be charged on to someone who is not yet born, moreover, inocent newborns who have not sined yet?
To do this is unjust, please explain this!

Quote:
but the GOSPEL is that the death of Jesus Christ put an end to sin for all who will receive it by faith,


Doesn't one need faith to reciev the Holy spirit if one is a sinner?
Please answer this!

Quote:
and that children are included under their parents' belief system.


This would mean that an aborted child who has unsaved parents go to hell.

Quote:
Regarding age of accountability, you are confusing a legal term here, which can be applied objectively by observers of a person's life - the signs of whether they are keeping the law or breaking it, and, the FACT that God sees the heart; even a very small child (less than a year old) knows how to comply or resist guidance, and a one year old can definitely 'sin', if obedience or lack of it, to a reasonable parent's request is taken into account.


Can a one year old understand the Kingdom of God, Salvation, or denying ones self as loseing his life to save it?

Quote:
Quote:
The proponents of Original Sin think that man is naturaly sinnful, they forget to acknowlege that with out knowing God one will naturaly do wrong.

But this is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of Paul's statement in Romans 7:


I meant to knowing God as this:
[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=993300] And this is everlasting life, that they may [b]know You[/b], the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. [/color]

To realy know Jesus is to be saved, not just know the law

Quote:
You see, a person's sense of GUILT is awakened by a knowledge of the goodness of God (through His law), but their SINFULNESS was already there.


No, it is there when they are young and they supress the truth in unrighteousness(Rom 1:18) and harden their hearts to their searing the concience. Romans 1:18-20, 1:24, 1:26, 1:28, & 2:14-15,

 2006/12/12 19:00Profile
AshleyJnr
Member



Joined: 2006/6/17
Posts: 45
Guolburn, NSW Australia

 Re:

Sorry if this question has been asked and answered already, I was just trying to skim through the posts and didn't see it blunty stated.And Sorry if I'm mis-understanding you - if so, just ignore this.

Isn't physical death a wage of sin?
If a baby has no sin why is it possible for it to physically die?

 2006/12/13 6:19Profile





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