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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Original sin

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GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
I chalenge to answer these Five (5) questions:



I wrote my verses first. Do you have a reply to those verses and what do you say to them?


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/1 12:56Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
Psalm 106:6
We have sinned with our fathers,We have committed iniquity, We have done wickedly.


Just that, they have done wickedly.

Quote:
Lamentations 5:7
Our fathers sinned and are no more, But we bear their iniquities.


There are circumsatances to sinnes that one must bear, these is this verse relate to the circumsatances of their fathers sins, not the judgment of guilt.

Quote:
Leviticus 26:39
And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.


They were scattered among nations in Lev 26:33 so they are being effected by the sins of their enimies, not the judgment of guilt.

Quote:
Nehemiah 9:2
Then those of Israelite lineage separated themselves from all foreigners; and they stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers.


Just as Daniel related with his people:
[b]Daniel 9:5 [color=990000][u]we[/b] have sinned[/u] and have committed iniquity and have done evilly, and [u][b]we[/b] have rebelled[/u], even by departing from Your commandments and from Your judgments.[/color]
Do you think Daniel realy sinned as the others?

This is a form of humility.

Quote:
Jeremiah 14:20
We acknowledge, O LORD, our wickedness And the iniquity of our fathers, For we have sinned against You.


This is not saying that they are being judged for their fathers sins, but, admitting that they [b]and[/b] their fathers sinned.

Quote:
Luke 11:46-51
And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.


This is because they are still doing the same as theire fathers.

 2006/12/1 23:10Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Ok. I'm not saying that God will judge us for another person's iniquity but that we sinned in Adam when he sinned. Why would our nature be effected by the fall if we didn't fall. If we didn't sin in Adam then we wouldn't be born sinners... we'd be just like how Adam and Eve were before the fall.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/3 20:42Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
Ok. I'm not saying that God will judge us for another person's iniquity but that we sinned in Adam when he sinned. Why would our nature be effected by the fall if we didn't fall. If we didn't sin in Adam then we wouldn't be born sinners... we'd be just like how Adam and Eve were before the fall.


How did we sin when we didn't exist(in Adam)?

[b]Nature[/b] = 1. The particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character: [b]human nature.[/b]
or
2. the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct:

3. characteristic disposition; temperament

4. by nature, as a result of inborn or inherent qualities; innately: She is by nature a kindhearted person.

5. of or in the nature of, having the character or qualities of: in the nature of an apology.
If Human Nature is sinful then Jesus, being fully human, was sinful. That whould be very wrong.

I don't believe people are born intrinsically sinful.
They become sinful being Godless.

A baby is not born Godless, therefore can not be born sinfull.

Being sinful is actualy being spiritualy dead;
[b]Romans 7:9[/b] [color=990000]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.[/color]

Paul said he was alive before he the law came to him at the age of acountability, then he died(became sinful).

 2006/12/4 18:37Profile









 Re: Original Sin

GraceAlone said

Quote:
If we didn't sin in Adam then we wouldn't be born sinners... we'd be just like how Adam and Eve were before the fall.

OK Logic, I'm reading this thread now. How do you answer the question from GraceAlone?

To me the complete predictability that people will sin, or, needed to avail themselves of the Old Covenant sacrifices and the Day of Atonement each year, tells its own story - that while God may not send babies to hell, it is not because they were not ALL born with the potential to outwork their sinful nature.

There is none righteous, no not one - Rom 3:10

and

(KJV) John 16:9
[they will be convicted] Of sin, because they believe not on me;

A baby is included under the jurisdiction of its parents. That's a BIG responsibility for unbelievers.

 2006/12/5 10:43
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
GraceAlone said
Quote:
If we didn't sin in Adam then we wouldn't be born sinners... we'd be just like how Adam and Eve were before the fall.

OK Logic, I'm reading this thread now. How do you answer the question from GraceAlone?


Please restate GraceAlones' question.
Quote:
.....it is not because they were not ALL born with the potential to outwork their sinful nature.


I'm sorry, what do you mean by "outwork their sinful nature"?
Quote:
A baby is included under the jurisdiction of its parents.


Again, I'm sorry, what does it mean to be "under the jurisdiction of its parents"?
Please clairify

 2006/12/5 13:30Profile









 Re: Original Sin

Quote:
Part of my concern is that my own words to her could be most faulty, and aught to be refined by another.

He didn't really state a question, and I realise you don't believe in the term 'Original Sin', which may be a reasonable term to resist.

However, in resisting it, you also resist the meaning of Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)

and Romans 6:6 (KJV, then Young)

Knowing this, that [b]our old man is crucified[/b] with [him], that [b]the body of sin[/b] might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

this knowing, that [b]our old man was crucified[/b] with [him], that the body of [b]the sin[/b] may be made useless, for our no longer serving [b]the sin[/b];


This is the Sin, to which philologos refers as having been EXECUTED.


It is this scriptural truth, which is the basis of Bible believers' search for a simple term to describe it separately from sinful actions, which are described by them as 'sins'.

And if it weren't for these verses, it might be possible to ignore the stark truth that no-one is born who does not end up in sin. But, it seems you want to believe that not everyone [i]begins[/i] in sin.

Quote:
I'm sorry, what do you mean by "outwork their sinful nature"?

In the section above, I have laid the foundation of my answer.

I believe that there is no time when a person's righteousness, even through obedience to the Holy Spirit under the Old Covenant (as John the Baptist whom you mention as a baby), of itself is enough to confer the righteousness of Jesus Christ on that person.

However, the faith which Old Covenant believers exercised, does, according to Hebrews 11, until Christ completes both theirs and our salvation.

Mark 7
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


Your thesis states that man is born free of sin, and has the possibility of never falling foul of any of the influences upon him - [b]except, that no-one ever [i]succeeds![/i][/b]

That never succeeding, is what I mean by sinful nature being outworked.


I don't believe that after regeneration through the Holy Spirit, that a person still has a sinful [i]nature[/i]. It is definitely possible for them to cease from sin, but, they may have a changing perception of what constitutes sin, in which case, 1 John 2:1 applies. The power to NOT sin, is now with them.

Quote:
what does it mean to be "under the jurisdiction of its parents"?

I mean that it is judged to be one with its parents. It is one flesh with them, and therefore, their relationship with God is of great import to the infant. This is borne out by Paul's assertion:

1 Cor 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: [b]else were your children unclean; but [u]now[/u] are they holy[/b].


That is, they are holy after one parent at least, has believed.

 2006/12/6 15:13
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Quote:
Part of my concern is that my own words to her could be most faulty, and aught to be refined by another.

He didn't really state a question, and I realise you don't believe in the term 'Original Sin', which may be a reasonable term to resist.

However, in resisting it, you also resist the meaning of Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



The Apostle here draws a comparison between the evil potencial in the sinning Adam and the beneficent or saving potencial in Christ.

Both are pictured according to their tendency than according to literal fact.

Surely the potencial of grace in Christ does not actually come upon all men unto justification of life, but it only tends to that end.

In like manner the evil potencial in the sinning Adam is characterized according to its tendency.

Quote:
and Romans 6:6 (KJV, then Young)

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

This is the Sin, to which philologos refers as having been EXECUTED.


It does not proove that it is the sin from Adam.

All you are doing is pointing out that all men sin and will sin because of the flesh that is able to sin.

There is no reason to believe that sin is inherited from Adam or any way els you want to blame it on Adam.

Why cant you just admit it as the Mystery of Iniquity that even Adam and the Devil fell by, for there os no diference?

 2006/12/6 18:50Profile









 Re: Original Sin


Quote:
the Mystery of Iniquity

I believe this refers to a future historic event, even if it is inspired by the fallen Lucifer.

It's up to you to know what GOD means by Romans 5:12. I don't have to take responsibility for your working out of your salvation, nor for your rendering of the meaning of scripture.


Quote:
It does not proove that it is the sin from Adam.

So, you don't accept that the NATURE of sin entered Adam, and affects every member of the human race, and was brought to an end through the work of Christ on the cross?

How, then, do you account for the efficacy of Christ's death?

 2006/12/7 6:47
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Quote:
the Mystery of Iniquity

I believe this refers to a future historic event, even if it is inspired by the fallen Lucifer.


It sais that the Mystery of Iniquity is already at work, how is that a future historic event, what ever that means?

Quote:
It's up to you to know what GOD means by Romans 5:12. I don't have to take responsibility for your working out of your salvation, nor for your rendering of the meaning of scripture.


Are you saying that I read it wrong?

Quote:
So, you don't accept that the NATURE of sin entered Adam, and affects every member of the human race, and was brought to an end through the work of Christ on the cross?


No, I don't. It only effects him.
Why shouldn't that state of Adam before he sinned be applyed to us?
Then, the after effect of our own sin aplies to us as Adams' own sin aply to him?

What makes Adam before his fall any difrent that any newborn babe?

Quote:
How, then, do you account for the efficacy of Christ's death?

For all.

 2006/12/7 13:54Profile





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