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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Original sin

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Original sin

Death = seperation
Physical death = seperation of soul from body
spiritual death = seperation of man from the life of God
Sin Nature = spiritual dead

Infants are inocent until age of ccountaboility. How? They have now a understanding of good & bad, threfore, can not be charged of sin.
If then, no charge of sin, then spiritualy alive(not seperated from the life of God) this means no "original sin".

When an infant dies, will go to heaven, therefore not spiritualy dead.

John the Baptizer was filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb ([b]luke 1:15[/b]). He was a child of God from birth(no original sin).

The fact that Adam still sinned and the angel, who is the devil now, sinned with out the "original sin" throws a rench the theory in that it is the cause of us sinning.

Babys don't sin(transgress), for they know not law.([b]Romans 5:13[/b] [color=990000]but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[/color])

Furhtermore, would you throw a retarded person with the mentality of a one year old to prison for (if posible) killing someone? Better yet, would God count that agains him?

Therefore, it is posible for a man to live a life not "born again" and never be charged of sin.

 2006/11/17 23:56Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re: Original sin

Wonderful theology!!! I love it. I deeply respect your study. I strongly agree with you. But i must humorously add that that man who lives a long life and never is charged of sin would have to be as ignorant as tree. and although david said, "i was shapen in mine iniquity. and in sin did my mother conceive me." This i believe only speaks of the sin nature in the flesh. Not the act of sinning in the heart. Because sin cannot "take occasion" by the entrance of the law, if there is never any law. So sin cannot slay even if it abides in the flesh. Only the flesh would die not the spirit. But if you can claim to be this ignorant, your not ignorant enough :)


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Matt Chenier

 2006/11/18 3:44Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

What happens to infants who die?
(John Piper)

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By DG Staff January 23, 2006


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This is a difficult and sensitive issue. Any answer must take into account that all of us are born sinful and thus worthy of judgment. The consistent New Testament emphasis upon the need for a second birth indicates that our natural state is that of sin, not innocence (John 3:1-12; Ephesians 2:1-5; cf. Psalm 51:5). We are "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3).

In addition to having sinful natures, we also come into the world with Adam's sin imputed to us. Because of our union with Adam, we are born guilty of his first sin (Romans 5:12-21). We go into this doctrine in detail elsewhere, but for now it is enough to point out that, according to Paul, the fact that all die physically (even those who, like infants, did not have the opportunity to knowingly transgress a law of God-Romans 5:13-14) is a demonstration that we are connected with the guilt of Adam's sin.

If we are all born under sin, and salvation is by faith in Christ (which infants do not seem to have the mental capacity to exercise), then it might at first seem that no infants can be saved. We are not, however, aware of anyone who actually takes this position. We are convinced that it would be a premature, unbiblical conclusion.

One reason is that there are apparent examples in Scripture of infants who were saved. We are told that John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit while yet in his mother's womb (Luke 1:15). In Luke's theology, being filled with the Spirit is consistently seen as an aspect of the Spirit's work among those who are regenerate (Luke 1:41, 67; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 6:3, 5; 9:17; 11:24).

Hundreds of years before John the Baptist, David wrote: "Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God." (Psalm 22:9-10). Because of David's apparent mention of having faith in God while still an infant, some have concluded that God saves infants by giving them a "primitive" form of faith. That conclusion, however, is not necessary to our point; the main thing to see in this passage is that David evidently was in a saving relationship with God from his mother's womb.

These verses make it very unlikely that all infants who die are lost. If God saved John the Baptist and David in infancy, surely we are warranted in concluding that he has saved others in infancy that were not given the opportunity to grow up. Yet, it would also be unwarranted to conclude from these texts that all who die in infancy are saved. The regeneration of infants does not seem to be God's usual way of working; we must keep in mind that "the wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies" (Psalm 58:3).

In light of these things, some have held that God saves some infants who die and not others. They point that this is seems most consistent with the doctrines of election and original sin.

John Piper and many others, however, believe that there is one more biblical strand of evidence which must be considered. This evidence leads us to conclude that God saves all infants who die.

In a funeral sermon several years ago for an infant, Dr. Piper summarized the basis for his conclusion:

Jesus says in John 9:41 to those who were offended at his teaching and asked if he thought they were blind-he said, "If you were blind, you would not have had sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."

In other words, if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God's will or God's glory then that person's sin would not remain-God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see.

The other text is Romans 1:20 where Paul is dealing with persons who have not heard the gospel and have no access to it, but who do have access to the revelation of God's glory in nature:

Romans 1:20 "Since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

In other words: if a person did not have access to the revelation of God's glory - did not have the natural capacity to see it and understand it, then Paul implies they would have an excuse at the judgment.

The point for us is that even though we human beings are under the penalty of everlasting judgment and death because of the fall of our race into sin and the sinful nature that we all have, nevertheless God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure.

Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.

In another sermon, he adds:

God in his justice will find a way to absolve infants who die of their depravity. It will surely be through Christ. But beyond that we would be guessing. It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God's grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.
It is important to emphasize that, in our view, God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.

It should also be emphasized that the salvation of all who die in infancy is not inconsistent with unconditional election (the view that God chooses whom to save of His own will, apart from anything in the individual). As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy. God's justice in condemnation will be most clearly seen by allowing those who will not be saved to demonstrate their inherent sinfulness through willful, knowing transgression.

Finally, for those who have struggled with this issue through personal loss, we would want to say that knowing what happens to infants who die is a good place to rest your soul. But it is only the second best place for resting your soul. As John Piper has said in another funeral sermon for a young infant:

The first best place is simply this: Psalm 119:68—"Thou art good and doest good."

This was George Mueller's funeral text when his wife Mary died of rheumatic fever in 1860. His three points were:

The Lord was good, and did good, in giving her to me.
The Lord was good and did good, in so long leaving her to me.
The Lord was good and did good, in taking her from me.

He did not start from Mary and move to God's goodness. He started with the unshakable confidence in the goodness of God rooted in Jesus Christ, and he interpreted his life and his loss in view of that goodness.

That is the bottom line is the goodness of God—that is the hope for us all, and the only hope.

Our final song is a plea for God's Spirit to wean us away from everything in the earth that would tempt us not to believe that.


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© Desiring God

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Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.








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What is the biblical evidence for original sin?

(John Piper)
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By DG Staff January 23, 2006


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There are several lines of biblical evidence for the historic Christian doctrine that we are all born into the world with sinful natures, due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." If we are all "by nature children of wrath," it can only be because we are all by nature sinners--for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy
There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child." Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

Humanity is Often Described in General Terms as Unrighteous
Unrighteousness is often spoken of in Scripture as something belonging to the human race as a whole.This implies that it is the property of our species. In other words, sinfulness is considered a property of human nature after the fall. Thus, it must be concluded that we are all born sinners, since we are all born human and sin is regarded as a property of humanity. In this vein, consider Ephesians 2:1-3:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Paul is here reminding Christians of what they were like before their conversion to Christ ("you were dead in your trespasses...in which you formerly walked"). Thus, all people, until and unless they are converted, are sinners. Paul goes on to make it absolutely clear that all Christians came from this state ("...we to all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh") and that all non-Christians are still in this state ("...and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.") Thus, Scripture regards all people before they are saved by Christ as sinners and thus deserving of punishment from God. Which is to say that from the inception of our existence, we are sinful.

In Psalm 14:2, 3 we read: "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." Here again we see unrighteousness as a property of the human race: "they have all turned aside...there is no one who does good."

Job 15:14 similarly declares that sinfulness is a property of humanity: "What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" Verses 15-16 then speaks of the human race as a whole in shocking terms expressing our general corruption: "Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!"


Jeremiah 17:9 says that "the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it." This seems to assume original sin--wickedness is a property of the human heart. Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: "...the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts through their lives." Again, the human heart is sinful, and therefore all humans are sinful.

These texts indicate, then, that human nature is corrupt. Therefore, even infants are corrupt because they are human. And if infants are corrupt, then this is the same as saying that we are born corrupt--which means we are born with original sin. One may, however, object that these texts speak nothing of infants, only those who are old enough to make moral decisions. All of those people are sinful, but this doesn't mean that infants are.

This is an ingenious objection, but it does not succeed. First, the texts do not seem to restrict themselves to people who are old enough to make intelligent decisions. They seem to speak of human nature as a whole, a classification under which infants certainly fall. Second, as Jonathan Edwards pointed out, "..this would not alter the case...For if all mankind, as soon as ever they are capable of reflecting, and knowing their own moral state, find themselves wicked, this proves that they are wicked by nature."

In other words, even if these verses were only speaking of people old enough to mentally understand sin, they would still be teaching original sin. For on that view, these verses would be saying that all people, as soon as they know good from evil, find themselves sinners. But if all people, as soon as they are capable of moral decisions, find themselves sinners, this proves that they are that way by nature.

Third, Edwards also says, "why should man be so continually spoken of as evil, carnal, perverse, deceitful, and desperately wicked, if all men are by nature as perfectly innocent, and free form any propensity to evil, as Adam was the first moment of his creation?" (Edwards, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin, 188).

Infants die, therefore they are not innocent
Death--both physical and spiritual--is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners. It could be objected that Christ was sinless, and yet He died. But He willingly gave up His life, and He did it to conquer the curse of death that we were under. In fact, God imputed to Christ our sins on the cross, and Christ died in punishment of those sins.

If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn't we expect there to be some people who have "beaten the odds" and never sinned?
If we are born innocent and good, why aren't there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into socities that influence all people to sin?

Further Resources

Jonathan Edwards, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended in The Works of Jonathan Edwards Volume I, pp. 143-233.

Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, chapter 24, "Sin."



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© Desiring God

Permissions: You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and distribute this material in any format provided that you do not alter the wording in any way, you do not charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction, and you do not make more than 1,000 physical copies. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is preferred. Any exceptions to the above must be explicitly approved by Desiring God.

Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 1.888.346.4700.


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Kristy

 2006/11/18 15:33Profile
SherylAnne
Member



Joined: 2006/11/16
Posts: 15
Louisiana

 Re:

I have a personal interest in this question, which led me to another question: Does an infant in body have an infant spirit? Does a spirit age or is aging evidence of decay, therefore, our spirits are ageless? Does anyone have any biblical support that babies' spirits are different from grown-ups?

What I am finding in the Scripture is that Matt 18:14 tells us "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish" which speaks to me of our Father's mercy and grace, and Psalm 139 tells us "Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them" which tells me my God is all-knowing and timeless. Does it then follow that God knows which spirits are His and which are not (not will be, remembering that He is timeless) therefore, He will base His righteous judgement on all that He knows?

John Piper has stated it simply enough:
Psalm 119:68—"Thou art good and doest good."
That speaks to my heart!


 2006/11/18 18:29Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re: Original sin

Quote:

"Therefore, it is posible for a man to live a life not "born again" and never be charged of sin."

Why do all die? Why the statement, all have sinned?

Romans 5:13-21 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If sin is not imputed, why death, and yet all died before the Law? Even though man cannot commit the sin of Adam all have sinned, for all now have the knowledge of good and evil that man cannot control.

Again, Quote: "Therefore, it is posible for a man to live a life not "born again" and never be charged of sin."

How? Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Whether babies don't sin or the the retarded unaware of sinning, sin still abounds, for all die, whether baby, retarded or of old age.


Questions', Questions'

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/11/19 2:11Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

My pastor taught me that when you can't see God's hands you need to watch His heart. This i do believe and all should agree, Nobody will go to heaven unjustified and nobody will go to hell undeserving. God is good and just. we can all agree on his judgement as being perfect in every situation, whether we understand the technicalities or not. Psalm 119 says "therefore i esteem all thy testimonies concerning all things to be right."


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Matt Chenier

 2006/11/19 5:33Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

my Question:
Eze 18:19 Yet you say, Why? Does not the son bear the iniquity of the father?

accept for God, He answers me:
Eze 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. A son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. And a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son

What makes Adam nature before he sinned any diferent than a baby?

What is the diference of the cause of his sin and ours?
Better yet, what is the diference of the cause of the angle who is now the Devil and ours?

What makes them worse is that they knew God more that any man alive today, and they still sinned.

How would God justify the judgement of guilt on one that did not commit an offence.

there is a true story of a child that grows up with Godly parents and teaches the child to love God.
The Child loves God and has a relationship even with Jesus(john 17:3)

The child is even filled with the Holy Spirit before he was born.(Luke 1:15)
He would not have done anything unrighteous(Rom 8:1-4)
Since the child had the Holy Spirit from the beginning, he would not have been accountable for any sin as Jesus takes the penalty of sin.

If then, the child had the righteousness of Jesus since before he was born because he had the Holy Spirit (Jesus/God) living in him to make him Holy and so he had the ability to be righteous/holy.

I think the better quiest to ask is this:
What is the cause of sin?
Adam's first sin?
The angle who is now the Devil's first sin?

This is what Paul calls "the mystery of iniquity".
The Mystery of Iniquity in [B]2Thes. 2:7[/B], though it could be 3 to 4 verses above the mention of it...
[B]2Thes. 2:4[/B] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
To sum it up - Man acting as god, and thinking he is a god, liveing apart from God and being a god unto himself.
which is from “The Lie” from the beginning.

It is a mystery and that is why people need to make up theoretical theologies like "Original Sin"
There is no way to understand sin, and to blaim it on Adam is as bad as blaiming our parents.

 2006/11/24 22:37Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Eze 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. A son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. And a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son


You have to interpret this passage in light of these clear verses.

http://www.ligonier.org/

Hear R. C. Sproul on the subject.

Quote:
Eze 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. A son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. And a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son

You know, babies died in the flood.

Luke 11

46 And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.


Matthew 27

25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/11/26 18:40Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Psalm 106:6
We have sinned with our fathers,We have committed iniquity, We have done wickedly.

Lamentations 5:7
Our fathers sinned and are no more, But we bear their iniquities.

Leviticus 26:39
And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.

Nehemiah 9:2
Then those of Israelite lineage separated themselves from all foreigners; and they stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers.

Numbers 14:18
‘The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’

Jeremiah 14:20
We acknowledge, O LORD, our wickedness And the iniquity of our fathers, For we have sinned against You.

Luke 11

46 And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.


Matthew 27

25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/11/30 13:01Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

I chalenge to answer these Five (5) questions:

1) What makes Adam nature before he sinned any diferent than a baby? (answer w/out useing the issues in question)

2) What is the diference of the cause of his sin and ours?

3) What is the diference of the cause of the angle who is now the Devil and ours?

4) How would God justify the judgement of guilt on one that did not commit an offence?

5) Why can't we just use the answer as the [u]"the mystery of iniquity"[/u] instead of takeing on a theory that involves an unjust charge of guilt by God.

The Pefect answer is [u]The Mystery of Iniquity[/u] in [B]2Thes. 2:7[/B], though it could be 3 to 4 verses above the mention of it...
[B]2Thes. 2:4[/B] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Wasn't this the lie that Eve recieved "ye shall be as gods"?

To sum it up - This is how it has been from then on, man acting as god, and thinking
he is a god, liveing apart from God and being a god unto himself.

 2006/11/30 19:53Profile





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