SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Future sins forgiven already?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
euangelion
Member



Joined: 2006/11/15
Posts: 9
Snellville GA

 Future sins forgiven already?

Although OSAS has been covered in this forum, I have not seen one aspect of this teaching covered. That is having your sins, past, present, and yet committed, forgiven upon one act of faith. I can find no scriptural reference to future sins being already forgiven by a previous appropriation of faith. And this seems to be in direct conflict with a parable that Jesus told in Matthew 18.

21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

This debtor in the parable clearly represents a believer for he threw himself upon the mercy of the king and his debt was cleared. Yet when the king learned of his unforgiveness, he became wrathful and handed him over to the torturers "until he should repay all that was owed him." How can our heavenly Father "do the same to [us]" if our sins are already forgiven upon one act of faith in the past? I don't find the Bible ever presenting the fact that a believer must sin and that those sins are already forgiven but only IF we sin, we have an advocate and IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrightousness.

What do you think?


_________________
Jacob Self

 2006/11/15 16:42Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England

 Re: Future sins forgiven already?

I noticed this is your first post, so welcome to the site. You will find a wealth of resources on this site that will cause you to grow and mature in the things of God.

Once saved always saved (OSAS)is popular, but not scriptural.

Not only in the scripture you quoted but in Hebrews 10 v38-39 it says, 'Now the just shall live by faith, but if anyone draw back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

You can't draw back unless you first went forward. By that I mean coming to Christ for salvation, not just going forward in a meeting.

We can lose our salvation.

If not, people would just sin from now until kingdom come (literally), and then, with all that sordidness resting upon them, expect to enter heaven.

Still, that is just my understanding of scripture.

God bless.

 2006/11/16 6:09Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

I am not an "OSAS" guy, though I don't believe God redeems, and then un-redeems. This aside, I believe that the genuinly born-again child of God is justified from all his sins during the moment of salvation, in that he will not be sent to the lake of fire for them. So he is not condemned for sins, but the things that he did not deal with prior to his death will be dealt with at the Judgment Seat of Christ, where God will burn away all his wood, hay, and stubble, there.

So yes, justified sinners are cleansed from all sins: past, present, and future, but God forbid that we should sin that grace should abound. And that man that abuses this, going on in sin becuase he believes in "once saved, always saved", I don't believe he is fallen from grace, I think he just tasted the heavenly gift, but didn't drink from the fountain.

Luke 7:

[40] And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
[41] There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
[42] And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
[43] Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

I get from this that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. So I may have had more than another prior to salvation, but we are equally justified upon conversion. Both saved by grace through faith. Now if I have more sin than another after conversion, we will not stand equally at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I will not recieve reward as much as the other, and I will not be ruling over heavenly cities like my brother might be.

I am imperfect, this is my stand with what I know of the Scripture, and I am willing to hear anyone whether they agree of disagree in any degree. I just threw that in as I have had many newcomers think I am trying to tell them they are wrong and I am right. I am not. I would love to be proven wrong on any level. You are welcome here, and we want to know what you think regardless of how many of us agree or disagree on doctrine. We all agree on the most important things. No one tramples the blood under foot, praise God!

Welcome to the forum, dear brother!


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/11/19 23:16Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re: I humbly express my opinion

letsgetbusy i must say you should really search the scriptures. future sins aren't forgiven because they don't exist. A sin isn't forgiven that doesn't exist. Can i be charged of sins i haven't yet committed? Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually. He did once unto sin. All sin generally. So either your forgiven for "sin" or you aren't. The wood hay and stubble that are burnt up are the works we do that produce no fruit. Works that aren't done in the right heart. Silver and gold are found underground where there is hard work and no glory. Wood hay and stubble are easy to gather and everybody can see your collection. It may look like a lot compared to one little precious stone, but it has no value. Also the bible is very clear on the fact that God does as you put it "unredeem" people. i might ask as well... what is the difference in god not "unredeeming" people and osas. They are the same thing to me

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

2pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome * , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


1co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means *, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/11/20 2:54Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Brother Matt,

I welcome your disagreement. Let me defend my thoughts.

First, the Scriptures, searched thoroughly, state that Christ paid for all sin, period. Not sins up to that point only, but all sin:

Psalm 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Is there any sin that Jesus did not paid for? If so, what is it?

"Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually."

Which of your sins did Jesus not die for?

Jumping ahead - blaphemy of the Holy Ghost is not the rejection of Christ's salvation by the believer, but the rejection of God's redeeming work to the unredeemed. Whatever you believe about this verse, it was not being addressed to to believers, but those who rejected Christ completely. I agree with your wood, hay, vs precious stone analogy.

I don't see any evidence of salvation in the 2nd Peter passage. Just knowing how to get saved, having a seed planted in your heart and considering it, doesn't save. The seed that is allowed to grow does. The fruit doesn't save, it is evidence of the salvation. The fruit is evidence of what you can't see; the well-watered, grounded root.

"what is the difference in god not "unredeeming" people and osas. They are the same thing to me"

What I meant by this is I don't preach the OSAS message, the way it is generally preached today. There is never anywhere in the Scriptures where God says, 'do this to be saved, but you can stop there if you want and still be saved, even though I want you to be crucified with Me.'

The same God that draws us to be saved, draws us to pick up our cross. And where I seperate from the modern way of OSAS thinking is that I believe there are MILLIONS of people who think they can come take a quick swig of living water, and run out the door before being issued a cross, and they are okay. When the reality of it is they had a good seed that was choked out when they considered what Christ asks for.

Many of those people, they came forward at a meeting with tears, turned some bad habits over, but then reverted a couple months down the road; you maybe would say were saved and then fell away. My stance is that they were never saved.

I have no problem with your stance, by the way, I think that realizing that individual is not saved now is something we both agree on. I say he never was, you say he was and isn't now. I would not go round and round with someone about that. You say wait and see if he falls away, and I say wait and see if the seed really took root. Now let's go plant and water, brother.

Paul's 1 Cor 9 was just simply stating that it would be a joke for him to be like the man from four chapters earlier, and being a drunk or an adulterer, and try to "preach to others." I know the Greek word here is also translated 'reprobate.' But Paul also said he would be condemned for his brethren that they might be converted. But in reality, his condemnation wouldn't do anything, he was just making an extreme statement. Similarly here, he is just saying his preaching with a sinful life would be like placing dung next to the stream and inviting others to drink.

As far as the 1 Cor 10 goes, I don't think the wilderness is talking solely about salvation. After all, Jesus went into the wilderness after being baptized with the Holy Ghost to be tempted. Israel was sent into the wilderness after being baptized in the Red Sea, to be tempted. Jesus came out of the wilderness full of the Holy Ghost. So I see this more as a testing of the genuine convert, more than an apostacy issue. Even if I believed you could be un-redeemed, I would not point to this passage. The wilderness is always used to try God's people, not unsave them. If you know of a biblical reference to prove me wrong, please point me there.

I look forward to reading your response and continuing the discussion later, dear brother. I have to go.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/11/20 10:43Profile
euangelion
Member



Joined: 2006/11/15
Posts: 9
Snellville GA

 Re:

Brother Hal,

Thank you for your insight and your welcoming me. Rather than tarry off into other "proof texts" I would like to bring it back to the parable in Matthew 18. I understand that you believe that all sins, whether past, present, or future, are forgiven upon coversion but I do not see how that could be understood in light of what this parable says. I've read several commentaries on the passage and have come up with some basic interpretations, contrary to my own, of the end result. Here are three:

1. The debtor wasn't actually a believer because no believer would behave in such a manner after having been shown such an act of mercy.

The problem with this interpretation is that the debtor was freely and fully forgiven when he threw himself upon the mercy of the king. What forgiveness does an unbeliever have from God? None. Otherwise, it would not be necessary to repent and BELIEVE. And while the debtor should have shown mercy (v. 33), he did not and thus he incurred the wrath of his master.

2. The tormenting represents chatisement from God.

We know the Lord chastises His children but this interpretation is inconsistent for several reasons. One, the eternalness of the torment. The debt was unpayable (v. 25) so we should expect the debt once retracted would be unpayable and thus eternal. Also, the second punishment was much more severe. Before, he was only threatened with being sold into slavery (v. 25) but now he faces torture! Torment until the debt is repaid which I've show from the passage is considered impossible. Are we to assume that our chastisement from God is a much more severe treatment than that before we were regenerated? However, the Bible states a worst fate for those who defect from the faith (2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 10:26-31).

3. The parable was hypothetical.

I don't understand the position of referring to something as hypothetical. It's as if this doesn't have some actual application to us such as "The story is hypothetical. The man was once again punished because of his sin but this is just a hypothetical situation. It doesn't have any practical application to the believer." Jesus certainly applied the parable actually with his words "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you!" The parable is a hypothetical situation in that it is the antecedent clause of a conditional statement (i.e. if so and so, then so and so). "IF you do not forgive, THEN My Heavenly Father will not forgive you."

How can God NOT forgive us for something if future sins are already forgiven? It would be contradictory. The truth is that Jesus' sacrifice was a PROVISION. IF we sin we have an Advocate. IF we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us. The Bible does not promise that forgiveness is incurred before an act is committed.

Thoughts?


_________________
Jacob Self

 2006/11/20 12:44Profile
SherylAnne
Member



Joined: 2006/11/16
Posts: 15
Louisiana

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus didn't die for each and every little sin individually. He did once unto sin. All sin generally. So either your forgiven for "sin" or you aren't.



Are you talking about salvation from "original sin?" an in...
1 Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
[color=0000FF]4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [/color]
6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls...
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
[color=0000FF] 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [/color]
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[color=0000FF] 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. [/color]
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[color=0000FF] 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.[/color]




Quote:
future sins aren't forgiven because they don't exist. A sin isn't forgiven that doesn't exist. Can i be charged of sins i haven't yet committed?



Although future sins do not yet exist to us finite creatures, are they not known to our Father? And has He not already made remedy?

1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[color=0000FF] 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/color]

If God's gift to me is "incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away," at what point do I corrupt and defile it? Which of my sins, that I am sure to commit and God has already made remedy for, costs me my salvation? Is there any time limit in which I must confess this sin or is it any unconfessed sin that I die with?
I don't know, maybe it's the walking in light thing, either you are or you aren't. ;-)

 2006/11/20 13:11Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

I would like to humbly throw this in...

People should research the doctrine of Perserverance of the Saints before they post about it. I find most people who bash it as a "liscense to sin" have never even looked at the doctrine in depth. It is not the liscense to sin that some make it out to be. Those who you see living in constant unrepentant sin while claiming "OSAS", very simply, were never born again to begin with.

I praise God that I can rest secure in the peace of His promises of salvation, and these wonderful promises make me want to honor his Holy Name by living in righteousness by His strength!


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2006/11/20 14:06Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi TaylorOtwell...

Quote:
Those who you see living in constant unrepentant sin while claiming "OSAS", very simply, were never born again to begin with.

I know several individuals that truly had a "born again" experience -- but still were drawn back into sin. Remember the parable of the sower?

I suppose the "bottom line" is simple: Don't abandon your relationship with Christ or return to a life of sin (2 John 1:8-10).

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/11/20 15:03Profile
searchin
Member



Joined: 2006/10/18
Posts: 125
u.s.a. /

 Re: Future sins forgiven already?

i find two groups often at work...those who make it too easy to backslide and those that make it impossible. thank God for the balance of grace in his word...

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, california has written a great book for study on this subject.
it's called "Calvinism, Arminianism and The Word of God"
filled with scriptures and answers to the most common and complicated questions on the subject on eternal security as well as predestination and our future sins....
thanx and God Bless

 2006/11/20 15:15Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy