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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Mikey Crosscheck...yowza

Wow ... Some good stuff in here saints, far too much to respond to at the moment, but Neil no issues brother, were right back into the confusion of assumptions, my own there as well adding to the confusion. If anything there was a departure to generalizations after your quote...

Think Krispy pretty well expressed things earlier and even Paul, think we are getting into definition issues here over what constitutes 'satanic', overtly or subtlety, 'on purpose' or just playing with theatrics. If anything was trying to press down into the heart of the matter ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/11/16 15:57Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Brother Paul West

Big Bart,

Heyyyy - I didn't know you wrote a Christian stage hit! Wow. Would I know the name?

I'm not quite sure what your last post - in terms of my old youth group - is about. But I sensed a whole lot of grace, and I thank you for your meekness! I understand your point that as an artist, one can still be a Christian. This is certainly true! R.M. McCheyne wrote classical music and hymns, and, of course, you mentioned C.S. Lewis. Funny that whenever I think of Tolkien, I think of Lewis and whenever I think of Lewis I think of J.B. Phillips. Weird.

Anyhow. I'm still not too sure how to answer your last post! I might question you on the [i]must[/i] part of having Christians in secular media and how it relates to C.S. Lewis' greatness. I can understand the sphere of his influence extending out to his secular audience. I also think of the guitarist from Korn who got saved a few years back and made substantial headlines. I believe his salvation is genuine. When he got saved, he left the band and lost a whole bunch of fans and went in Rolling Stone magazine and spoke openly of Jesus being the only way, truth, and life. Great. He is very involved in a church and in evangelism. Praise the Lord! He's bringing forth the fruit meet of repentance.

But, you see, there's also a bunch of speculative stuff that goes on, as I'm sure you know of. Lot's of popular recording artists that claim to be born-again (and some even filled with the Spirit) but yet are involved in terrible, grevious things that bring reproach and mockery upon the church.

Whatever happened to the people like Billy Sunday and C.T. Studd, who, after getting saved, [i]left[/i] the secular arts and preached Christ and suffered shame and self-denial? Tentmaking is one thing - but being an outlet for worldy entertainment is another. C.T. Studd was like the Babe Ruth of English cricket. Billy Sunday was an incredibly gifted baseball player. These were not humble tentmaking occupations. These were extremely lucrative and worldly careers, and when Christ called them, they dropped their nets and left it all behind. The awesome thing is that God used their popularity and stardom to his purpose, but notice, they didn't [i]stay[/i] in their professions, continuing in the limelight and fame and prestige. And how could they? The gospel is despised, it's an offense, and the secular world will reject you because of it. How can one be truly saved of God and remain popular and wealthy and reap all the devil's blessings reserved for his own children?

I don't mean to sound judgmental here, but let me ask you an honest question: Would you like Johnny Cash to pray for you? Or Little Richard? Or James Brown? Or Elvis? Or Merle Haggard? Or Alice Cooper? These are all supposed professing, born-again Christians who, for one reason or another ($$$) have chosen to remain in the secular arts and project "Christ" through their medium, intermingling their religion with other popular secular and godless themes.

Personally, I can't be bothered with it. In my opinion, if you're not going to live it and take up your cross and suffer shame, then I don't want to hear you sing about it or paint it or write or even talk about it. It does nothing for me. You're better off not professing christianity at all. Better for you at the judgment, and better for the unsaved to not hear your unctionless, compromised confession that kills rather than gives life.

What do you think? Do you agree?

Blessings in Christ, my brother!

Little Paulie


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Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/16 16:32Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Quote:
In my opinion, if you're not going to live it and take up your cross and suffer shame, then I don't want to hear you sing about it or paint it or write or even talk about it. It does nothing for me. You're better off not professing christianity at all. Better for you at the judgment, and better for the unsaved to not hear your unctionless, compromised confession that kills rather than gives life.



I quite agree.

For many years while teaching ballet and directing a dance company with strictly classical and inspirational choreography, I noticed many churchians held me in lo-esteem. :) "What kind of Christians will be in the dance business." Despite how I tried to steer young female dancers to stay away from jazz and hip hop, and the young male dancers away from the gay crowd.

On the other hand, one Baptist church invited me to become their dance minister, in the name of inspiring worship!! They told me that the Holy Spirit will bring glory to God through the beautiful movement of the dancers!! (no kidding, thank God,I turned this 'nministry' down)
If you think christian music industry is big, christian dance industry is following suit. All that swaying, leaping and prancing around the cross..sigh..last I saw, a group of 'christian'ladies dancing can-can in short skirt santa outfits in one of the most prestigeous Baptist church in town during Christmas. Surely the pastors and elders were having a grand time bobbing along in their mind perhaps.

Most of my past clents claim to be Christians. They want their youth to perform 'worship' on Sundays at their churches, while take them to hip hop training somewhere else during the week, just wherever glamor is. Yeah, it's not just money, it's glamor.

In the end, I walked away from all of it. As hard as I tried to bring these youth to the Lord via the art of classical ballet,it's useless, all their parents and their children/youth want is glitz and glamor. Most of these youth, do wind up on stages of the horrid sort later in life.

Brother Paul, I know what you meant,totally, one can not have the 'best' of both worlds. Things often come in a package. We just can't scream holiness on the one hand and let loose on the other, satan does have a way with even God's children in rationalizing all sorts .

The flesh is just forever vulnerable to seduction and temptation, one can not be too cautious in safeguarding the soul and preserve it for not only the glory of Christ, but the service to God. Especially with our children.

I don't deny Christian arts overall, mostly, be they the arts, the artists and the admirers of the arts, God probably judges the fruit (i.e. the influence) of them, in relation to Christ's glory, rather than the expression of the artists, or even the heart and intent of the artists.

Sad to say, just reading all those rock and roller's names draw me back to the dark days of yester-year. Not too edifying really.

Furthermore, I strongly discourage God-loving parents to engage their children in improper dance training, from 'christian' dance schools or not.









 2006/11/16 20:33Profile
kobilove
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 21


 Re:

Quote:
On the other hand, one Baptist church invited me to become their dance minister, in the name of inspiring worship!! They told me that the Holy Spirit will bring glory to God through the beautiful movement of the dancers!! (no kidding, thank God,I turned this 'nministry' down)



Quick question mamaluk... are you saying that its wrong to teach dancing as a form of worship? The are so many references in the bible that talk about dancing in the presence of God.
2 Samuel6:14
David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might
I know that dancing from our heart before the lord is a expression of our gratitude and how much we love him.
David danced before the lord when the ark of God was finally brought back from the philitines.
I believe dancing is biblical and
It should be taught but in the right way.Music is a form of worship, but if the musicians are not taught to direct their passion, skill and talent to God, the essence of music in worship is lost.

 2006/11/16 22:11Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

kobilove,

When i first started the inspirational dance program years back, believe me, i went to the Bible and extracted all the dance related verses to promote the program, oh yeah, I listed them all. Even though i never allowed my dancers to be involved in any official worship services, I made sure these verses were printed in the performance bulletins on other venues, to God's glory ( so I tried ).

From hind sight, I think I was very wrong, because I think I used the Bible, really to promote dance or myself. I feel that even though my intention might be right, but I don't think God was glorified. Indeed, I had audience approached me, told me they were in tears because the dancing were so beautiful and so moving, but I doubted how much of that was of the flesh and emotion, rather than of a spirit of appreciation of holiness and aduration of Christ.

Worship music, dances were/are very much a part of the religious activities from days of old till the present. We see priests using temple prostitutes dancing as a form of worship in the old testament somewhere (Judges ?) Pardon me if i remembered wrong. David danced out of sheer joy and adoration to God, but that was not an organized dance performance to worshiping God.

Do I have trouble now dancing to hymnals at home when I feel joy to the Lord? No, I still do, but I don't consider that worship either. I see that as emotionally gratifying my soul towards God.

Faith in Christ, to me, is NOT a religion, and I believe that religious worship "services" is perhaps no longer part of the Apostle Paul's teachings.Regular fellowship with brethren, breaking of bread, singing praises towards God, prohesying and teaching the Word, in my view, are not worship, they are elements of fellowship and honoring Christ as an assembly.

Worship, is an individual, heart-to-God event, as in John, must be done in spirit and in truth.

No doubt, just like music, paintings, and writing, dances can be used to honor God, which I tried with ballet, probably did fairly sucessfully too, but worship? nah..

My last post was written in addressing to Paul's exhortation of "departing from evil in all forms and at all cost" (sorry brother Paul, I titled it for you like that.)

That is not to say, everyone has to agree with me. I shared my experience and testimony in light of art,in hopes to point all back to the holiness of God, please just leave it at that if possible, for whatever its' worth, as always, I dread debates and arguments, they are very tiresome for me.

The only elements in worship, must align with :


[color=0000CC]John 4:22-24

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers [b]shall[/b] worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him [b]must[/b] worship him in spirit and in truth.[/color]

Brother Paul, I appreciate your stance in these matters.





 2006/11/16 23:04Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

An observation by absence. Was just mulling over those words trying to elucidate something that evades me a bit still ... Recall MC making mention of it elsewhere and recall Chambers talking to it as well... mamaluk touched on it;

Quote:
The flesh is just forever vulnerable to seduction and temptation, one can not be too cautious in safeguarding the soul and preserve it for not only the glory of Christ, but the service to God. Especially with our children.



Something of tweaking with the soul or soulishness may be more what is at bottom of a lot of this.

By absence I meant that though the former life was filled with all the aforementioned music, today it is non-existent. Redundant to mention again but I rarely listen to any music whatsoever and that is for very different reasons than because I 'shouldn't'. My best hunch at the reason is likely due to the entrenchment formerly. I didn't wake up one day and swear off rock and roll or music in general, more like a leading out of it gradually, largely unnoticed even.

It wasn't anything I read surely, even after coming out of the darkness and into the light, most of the same denunciations always had that over the top dishonesty about it, difficult to teach someone the evils of their trade when they have never practiced it. Just wasn't those things at all, it was something inward, the intimations of the Holy Spirit that I just couldn't 'allow' these things, it bothered me spiritually, not because "I ought not", not because of a message or a preacher telling me so, replaying all the imagery of things I already knew all to well.

Hard for me to express this correctly. What I have noticed after much time away is the same effects of television and say drama for instance. Rarely watch the TV for these sort of things and the play on emotion is much more pronounced having seen it from this perspective. The music and moods created by it, the drawing off of sympathies, the soulish qualities. It is not necessarily a denouncement of it all wholesale, nor do I believe it is for 'everyone' to abstain from any or all of it ... Qualifying that of course with what would be overt, vulgar, sensual and so forth. Much of it reminds me of the old "others may, but you cannot", neither here nor there, "what is that to [i]you[/i], you follow me".

One of the grave dangers that can come up through our discussions is the assumption that while discussing a perspective one is lending credence to it or approval, support or defense when that is very often far from the case. Will likely and hope to continue to push the matter of honesty no matter what it is we discuss, this it seems is where we can often go far astray as Brethren, over proving a point to make a point, it's just dishonest and lying ultimately. Fortunately we are blessed to have amongst ourselves those that grasp this and can help us all to get to the very spirit and truth. May be veering off course here but to bring this back to the matter at hand, what constitutes 'satanic' in our understanding? Mused on this thread on the way home tonight and the verse;

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.

Interestingly, 'heard' it from the EMTV version which renders it;

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one.

The 7-11 is satanic, the asphalt is satanic if it was laid by unsaved men ... I thought of creation itself, trees and birds, the ocean and the dirt that carpets the earth, satanic? No. But the former things, where do we draw the line or do we? Are we missing the sheer subtlety of what the enemy is really up to? The outward results of fallen, rebellious men, are they the co-mingling of spiritual manipulation that we are not even aware of, tugging and pulling at the emotions, making the distinctions blurred? Unsure if it is the hardwiring of the makeup or the devils minions tempting and disguising themselves in other ways, say ... 'Christianity'? What greater effect than to divide and conquer? "That they may all be one", has he managed a great deal of success not here alone? Quite a bit more comes to mind, but what greater diversion than to occupy our thought's with the outcomes and results and make [i]that[/i] the issue (drunkenness, r'n'r, sensuality etc. etc.) without peeling back the layers to find the root of the matter and address it...

Musing ...


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Mike Balog

 2006/11/17 0:08Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

forgive some ranting but I wanted to duck in the slipstream opened here....

Quote:
Quote:
The flesh is just forever vulnerable to seduction and temptation, one can not be too cautious in safeguarding the soul and preserve it for not only the glory of Christ, but the service to God. Especially with our children.



Much of it reminds me of the old "others may, but you cannot", neither here nor there, "what is that to [i]you[/i], you follow me".

1Jo 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one.

Are we missing the sheer subtlety of what the enemy is really up to? The outward results of fallen, rebellious men, are they the co-mingling of spiritual manipulation that we are not even aware of, tugging and pulling at the emotions, making the distinctions blurred? Unsure if it is the hardwiring of the makeup or the devils minions tempting and disguising themselves in other ways, say ... 'Christianity'?

make [i]that[/i] the issue (drunkenness, r'n'r, sensuality etc. etc.) without peeling back the layers to find the root of the matter and address it...



It is hard describing spiritual movements beneath the surface, but you''ve seemed to touch them here for me...Who or what is indugling all our senses in church these days? Two of the most powerful ministries in church are under abusive management...music and youth. I say abusive because indulging children, (of all ages) is a form of abuse.

Worship to 'God's people' has become little more then enchanted song time...our feeding at the trough of emotions. Wanted to blame that on the Charismatics, but realize that's a cop out...most modern churches seem piggish this way.

Now I admit I like music...I'm a musician...but music is hardly worship. Can't say for everyone what worship in spirit and truth is, but for my own contribution to this subject I'd say it has less to do with music, and more to do with living and obeying the government of God in our hearts.

After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things

Now I know that there will be a literal establishment of a Government in Zion...but doesn't the authority of that government already hold sway over God's people...or are we under the law of our pleasures untill he returns?

How little the Kingdom seems to be found in our average corner church... Is there a place for songs and dancing? Only if there is also place for Jesus in all these words and gyrations that bare his reputation. Everyone wants liberty above all other considerations...but who cares if there is grace and liberty to do something if it does not do justice to the name of God! Now many of us are young and just starting out...needing grace and milk and we understand this...but even as we feed on milk and cookies...what vector does our 'feeding' set us on? Where is it taking us?

So we sing our diddies, dance our twirls, and utter prophecies of straw...we huff and puff and nothing ever changes in our churches...except they become more settled with time. Isn't this proof that this music craze has little to do with worship? With glorifying God? At a church we used to sing this upbeat gospel song "Well we're a church on fire" and I wanted to go sit in the car and wait untill the dead party was over. Now I loved the people there...they are the dearest brothers and sisters I know...but that happy song just broke my heart into pieces. How can something false be spirit and truth?. I didn't leave out of judgement...I would leave to preserve my own already wobbly sense of reality....

Wouldn't true worship be to take the bitter untrue words of that song, swallow them like the vile lie they are and cry out to God...asking for him to make the words of that song come back out of our bellies...this time true and alive...but you would lose the visitors...yet maybe the next wave of visitors to step into your door would be coming for the right worship.

And then my wobby sense of spiritual reality fails me...and I tell myself I am an idealist and that the lie is the truth...there is no fire except it be sung about in a happy song. Relax...Enjoy the party...make sure to shake someone's hand on your way out into the world.

I find this word approprate.
Quote:
Musing ...



which means thinking or considering...now contrast this to the A-musement of music...amusement meaning to suspend or stop thinking.

Could it be that modern worship...rather then turning eyes upon Jesus, looking full into His wonderful face to consider their ways before him...that instead contemporary P&W floods the senses with pleasant obstruction...people raise their hands and shut their eyes never having to fall upon the Rock of their salvation...they sway to the spirit of the age...year after year entering the sancturary of church never having to be confronted with conscience...

Where is the worship that crosses over to a Kingdom of unmanufactured pre-existant holiness, where the God is enthroned and unchallenged...a vision of an unearthly city that is vast beyond the scale of any fleshly government, prophetically trembling our feeble knees, and yet setting our hearts on fire to endure all things for His namesake during our brief time?

I ain't never yet heard a song that can do that. Only obedience, which is the heart of worship, can see through the torn veil. All other 'revelation' is artistic license...and there is much creative talent in 'worship' these days.

MC

(forgive my strong , perhaps self-agrandizing opinions above...there is much smoke being blown in our eyes on this subject...and I sometimes find myself pushing hard to see past it...and I certainly see myself in this mess...)


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Mike Compton

 2006/11/17 1:56Profile
Yeshuasboy
Member



Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada

 Re: 666

God bless you Mike...
I hope you don't think I'm in some way saying Niko McBain isn't a christian. I never at all stated that...I indeed hope to God he is...and is his conversion even any of my business?...I don't think it is.
But I do know what my Lord has asked of me - to deny myself, pick up my cross and follow Him...to pray without ceasing, to love my enemies and my neighbor, etc, and to mortify my fleshly members.
I, Mike, used to be a hugh Maiden fan not too many years back. But I don't lust after their music anymore - and only this is by the grace of God.
And I too believed in God when at the same time loved listening to Maiden, but it was a different Jesus than I know of today. I thought it was okay to love the things of the world and the Lord at the same time. I know consider this to be committing spiritual adultery against the Lord, and this is where i am today....and still have alot farther in Him to press into.
I do remember however what made me come to the conclusion "I didn't know what to think" after reading the mcBain interview. it was the fact that the man's saying he's born again while in the same interview he's uttered three or four swear words.
Honestly, I don't even like to say I'm a Christian so I don't...I'll let someone else say that of me, but I won't say it of myself.
I believe in a Lord that calls sinners to repentance, and not to live unregenerated lives. And i don't believe a true child of God can be happy and content living the life of an unregenerate soul.

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Hi Ritchie,

Quote:
I can't comprehend headbangin' to 'The Number Of The Beast' and mortifying my fleshly members at the same time.





Is this really any of our business when we get right down to it? What I mean is, are we to take the quick clippings, the little that is known and make a case one way or the other? Isn't the larger question, [i]why[/i] are we so interested in attempting to figure these things out? Not trying to be pointed or accusatory, just food for thought.


So, maybe my post rubbed you the wrong way....If it did, please explain why. Again, I never attacked Niko's testimony at all in my post, so what's with your remarks? And when have I ever questioned another man's salvation Mike?
richie


_________________
Richie

 2006/11/17 4:21Profile









 Re:

Hey guys... this is really a great discussion! One of the better ones concerning music that I have seen here! Great stuff!

Krispy

 2006/11/17 6:53
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

The old testament states that the children of Israel were not to recycle the gold off of the idols of Canaan lest they fall into temptation themselves. I strongly disagree with taking a song the world recognizes as being secular and evil to use as a worship song or any other type of casual music. Not all secular music is evil as not all secular movies are evil. I myself prefer to be edified by a ministering song than entertained by a worthless song.
As coming out of sex drugs and rock and roll i strongly despise the Christ labeled metal. It is nothing but a recycled idol to me. I have heard that the music doesn't matter its the lyrics. I remind you that the lyrics of the fortune teller girl in Acts were completely accurate of Paul and i think it was barnabas. However, the spirit by which the lyrics were spoken was an evil spirit sent not to confirm "the servants of the most high God that shew unto us the way of salvation." But to bring persecution and trouble to Paul. Let's not be so undiscerning of the power of the unseen and spiritual influences of the Devil.
Lets be open as to the fact that the age group that Christ labeled metal focuses is youth. And the youth have the biggest struggle with rock and roll. So should we take them out of the world and put them into a worldly youth group and expect them to prosper spiritually? Lets try to sanctify their surroundings and offer them something more than attraction. How about offering them Joy unspeakable and full of glory. I don't thing we need to glorify the Glory of God by dressing him up with the worlds outfits of attraction. I think the Glory of God is beautiful just the way He is.
I don't think rock and roll is evil because "nothing is evil of itself" but the world doesn't know that. And it reminds the young ones of their struggles and makes it hard to separate. I think most the world views rock and roll as being ungodly because of the reputation of rock and roll. I wouldn't want to lose Christs testimony by mixing him with what the world views as ungodly. Whether it be ungodly or not. I can honestly say however i've never ever heard a rock and roll song that in any way ministered to my spirit. They usually just offend me. I can also note that metal is a violent music. And my God is not a violent God.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/11/17 7:30Profile





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