Krispy, you wrote:
here is a band that Christians are willing to label as Satanic when they werent at all.
Maybe it's me. I'm not understanding, really, I'm trying to. Can you clarify? This statement startles me. Iron Maiden most definately was and is (if they're still doing their stuff) Satanic, and the fact that they don't drink goat's blood or sacrifice virgins and wear black robes and hold chalices doesn't make them any [i]less[/i] Satanic than than who they really are - in fact, it makes them even [i]more[/i] dangerous and effective by the enemy. Can you understand my confusion here?
So, please. What are you saying? I really am trying to resolve this with you, I love you and am trying really hard to accept your view point, though you say we are saying the same.
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/11/16 11:36||Profile|
When they were labelled "Satanic" by Christian in the 1980's, the impression was given that by Satanic they worshipped Satan... intentionally. In other words, their religion was Satanism.
This was not true.
I think we're getting caught up in semantics, and I probably could have been clearer.
Fact is, their lyrics promote a worldly view point. They do not promote Satan in a favorable light, and in some of their songs they refer to God... but definately not from a Biblical point of view. But the impression was given, back in the day, that they held satanic masses and things like that... and it wasnt true... making the Christians who said these things liars.
Iron Maiden album covers? No doubt... to be avoided. I always found their covers to be a bit of a contradiction. I wasnt even saved back then and didnt understand the relation between their songs and the covers. I think they were controversial... and in show business there is no such thing as bad publicity. And the church was more than happy to give them the publicity they needed in order to sell more record. It's all about the love of money... the root of all evil.
What I'm really getting here is that Christians come out with things at times that simply are not true... but becaus of the general gullibility of most Christians, it never gets challenged.
I agree completely with what you're saying. I'm just saying lets be careful that we give an accurate impression, or accounting. When you say a certain band is Satanic, you are giving a particular impression. You know as well as I do that when you say that, in most people's minds they imagine Satanism.
Thats a real problem in the church today. We have our own language and meanings. People on the outside have no idea what we're talking about half the time.
A non-believer will not understand what you're trying to say with out some heavy amounts of clarification.
All I'm asking for is some intellectual honesty.
Of course... intellectualism is a tabboo in the church too. :-)
PS... sorry about all the mispellings in this post. Too numerous to go back and edit.
| 2006/11/16 11:54|
I think I owe you an explanation as to why I came on so strong with this topic. A few years ago I served as a youth pastor over a group of about 15 or so kids who just wouldn't give up this kind of music. It wasn't necessarily Maiden or Van Halen or whatever, it was more of the modern stuff like Vanilla Ice and Ice Cube and rap and thrashy stuff. A big reason they clung to it (after professing Christ) was the supposed "cool lyrics" of love and goodness and taking care of your own. We even went to a questions and answers retreat once where a minister got up to answer the question, "Is it okay for Christians to listen to secular rock?" This guy said, basically, "Sure. You just have to choose it wisely." That was the dumbest statement I've ever heard. How can you choose the devil's wares wisely? I believe [i]all[/i] his contaminated wares must be disposed of, and replaced by Christ-honoring, anointed, sanctified music that edifies a Christian's spirit in God. Well, this "minister" with one sweeping statement practically undid and brought massive confusion into an area that my group was concerned with. He told the kids it was okay to listen to Elvis and doo-wap because the music was full of "love and lovely things to think about". From there, I was faced with the kids now asking, "Well, Metallica has this song about love too...and so does this other band, and this one too...Tupac sings this song about his momma." Oh, it was very sad. Compromise just throws the door wide open. A little leaven leavens the entire lump.
The reason your post frustrated me was the extolling of Maiden's lyrics. It reminded me of this compromised minister that gave the children the [i]wrong[/i] answer, and consequently caused more damage to their little minds than he'll ever know - until he discovers it at the judgment seat. I've known you for a few months, I've read your posts. I know not all of us have similiar convictions. But a trend I've noticed (not necessarily with you) is that the church tends to go lightly on stuff like this. And anyone who takes a staunch approach against it is usually slandered a legalist.
A terrible consequence to this is that the kids who once listened to Metallica and Slayer now listen to the same [i]spirit[/i] of the rhythm, but with "Christian" lyrics. Slayer has now become Pillar, and so the compromise is perpetuated, the music instantly baptized "Christian" at the mention of God in the lyrics. But I say that the mention of God in a band's lyrics makes the music no more Christian than secular band [i]not[/i] sacrificing goats makes them non-Satanic. Thus, I consider Iron Maiden singing about English wars just as evil and wicked as Slayer openly singing praises to Lucifer. In fact, I consider bands like Iron Maiden even [i]more[/i] dangerous than the outright-professing "Satan-worshipping" bands, as a bottle of poison without a label is more dangerous than the bottle [i]with [/i] the label, though the poison be the same.
p.s. I read your last post. I understand what you're saying - Satanic meaning "professing Satanists". The actual animal-sacrificing, adherents to the offical Church of Satan. Of course, Maiden would never admit this, and in their minds they may truly be repulsed by the thought. I don't really know of anyone that will admit to woshipping Satan, though they do. They sing his praises, they worship what he has done with the female body, with the concept of marriage - though they deny the fact, they are members of the "Synagogue of Satan" and unknowingly support the church. They tithe their lives, their talents, their intellect. in this sense, Iron Maiden is Satanic to the core. You are right that an unbeliever would never understand this! I would never attempt to tell an unbeliever this, though. The carnal man cannot understand the spiritual, it's foolishness to him.
God bless you, my brother
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/11/16 12:12||Profile|
amen paul, to your righteos judgement on the works of satan.
yeah, a lot of christian do judge outwardly/hypocritically, but lets becareful and not mistaken from righteos judgement. it is obvious that many bands and many things in this world are under the influence of satan.
if your not following God and His ways, then you will be under the influence of satan and you follow him.
1 john 5:19
we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
most christians feel so much for the lost in a wrong way. sypathize too much for them because their in the same boat as the lost (still stuggling with sin). i think a lot of christian who are so agaist any kind of judgement and not calling sin for what it is, is because they have areas where they are struggling too and not living an overcoming life so they look down with jelousy and anger upon others who can stand confidently and boldly for the truth (i'm not directing this comment at anyone on this thread).
when we do not call sin for what it is, what happends is the lukewarm christians will take over and bring luke warmness to the rest of the body. and look at the church now! many are so ashame to stand up for the truth and love Jesus boldly that it has caused the church to suffer and be ruled by many wolves.
i ask what about jesus? christians are so worried about hurting the lost. what about hearing and seeing so many false christians lifting up Jesus name in disgrace with their sinful lifestyle? doesn't that break us when we hear and see Christ name put to shame by false brothers who lives a lifestyle filled with the world. what about jesus name being defamed?! doesn't your heart break with tremdouse pain to hear His name being defamed by false brothers and the lost?!
| 2006/11/16 12:39||Profile|
Did the Christian magazine come right out and say that Iron Maiden was Satanic because they "sacrifice goats and drink blood", etc. They probably thought they were Satanic just from looking at their album covers! And they would be right. I don't think that's a lie, do you? I mean, you say it was a [i]Christian[/i] magazine, and who primarily reads Christian magazines but other Christians? It's sorta like who goes to evangelistic Christian rock fests but other Christians?
But that's another topic altogether! :-)
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/11/16 12:44||Profile|
Now we're getting into the Christian Rock debate... again. That usually boils down to personal taste. Someone sees no value in it, so they condemn it. But I contend that musical style is not the issue. No one has ever been able to explain to me what style of music is godly... not once. Except for some Baptist around here that tell me that southern gospel is the only godly music.
| 2006/11/16 13:14|
I met a brother from another forum ( who brought me to SI ) earlier this year who has somewhat changed my view about the topic of non-traditional inspirational music. (Not for worship, personally I cannot worship with any music at all, too distracting).
Through the acquaintance of this brother's views, biblical knowledge and a honest heart reflected on his many posts, I was baffled (because I have been very intolerant with non-traditional Christian music and musicians) when I found out that this brother is a professional Blues guitarist/muscian who has written some very moving songs in expression of his faith and journey in life.
Eric Sawyer, aka Aeryck on SI,has produced some real decent Christian Blues, I think, though I was very skeptical about them at first. Brother Eric, if you are reading this, please don't be offended.
(Moderators please feel free to delete if deemed inappropriate)
Yeah, just as all else in life, food, music, art, books..one word comes to mind, and that is, [b]discretion[/b]. As Mike reminded us from Galatians, ..."God is not mocked, whatsoever one sow, that shall he also reap." That's for sure.
| 2006/11/16 14:28||Profile|
Hey... I listened to this music... Great stuff!!! I'm gonna have to buy this CD.
What you are saying is true. I get a lot of comments about my stance on many issues. People end up pegging me as a stuff shirt (until they get to know me around here)... and they get this impression that I'm some sort of scholar or something... then the cat gets out of the bag that I like all kinds of music... including blues, metal (not thrash... I like melodic metal), etc... and it blows people's minds. How can he like that stuff and still walk with God?
Easy... I just walk with God. That's it.
(of course, I have issues with the Christian music industry... and I don't listen to secular music... we're not talking about that)
| 2006/11/16 14:56|
| Mikey Crosscheck...yowza|
Bro, I didnt mean to ring your bell with my post, to wit "all these musicians WANT hell"
believe me, if there's any one posters here who is reticent about pronouncing fiery hell to unbelievers, tis I.
I just had watched that 28 minute thingy the brother posted, where all those musicians were literally saying they "sold their souls to satan", and was just commenting on that.
I think even before I got saved it baffled me on how somebody would even contemplate "selling" their soul to the devil, in Hebrew the word is abbadon, the "destroyer". To me, even then, it just sounded unwise to do such a thing, and I believe this was because I was raised up in the synagogue, and either something was of God or it wasn't. Thats why when all my high school chums got into Dungeons and Dragon's along with Black Sabbath, I found it all so tedious and boring, I wasnt judging them, it just wasn't me....and as I wrote I joined the Navy, they got involved with a satanic temple and that was that.
Plus, I've never been into heavy metal, acid rock, raves, etc etc....its just boring to me, and I dont mean that offensively at all, nor judge those who play it.
My favorite secular (?....and he might know Jesus, I don't know) musician has always been John Cougar Mellencamp, because I identified with him and what he wrote about. Two of my favorite songs have always been "Small Town" and "Jack and Diane". "Small Town", because he's singing about what I feel..."don't you feel Jesus in that small town?" (Chicago a small town?...what?...oh yes, its the largest small town you've ever seen, everybody knows everybody or at best is two degrees seperated)
I weep at that song....."thats probably where they'll bury me". I love ole Johnny, he still lives in Seymour Indiana, not far from here, and I weep at "Jack and Diane", coz that was my and Trishas song, when the world was young....."little ditty about Jack and Diane, two American kids growing up in the heartland"...even as I type these words my eyes water, coz I love that girl and can still see her face in my hearts eyes...oh Lord, how I miss her.
John Mellencamp is my kinda guy.
I don't judge brother, my heart is that ALL may enter the Gates of Heaven. I let Jesus do the judging, and He allows me to discern.
sorry for rubbing you the wrong way.
much love in Christ, neil
| 2006/11/16 15:08|
| Brother Paul West|
just a small point, well, actually a large one, but i gotta hit the road in a sec....this is in regards to the youth group you were leading:
I'm an artist, you know that already.
I'm also a child of Abraham and a follower of Jesus, you know that too...at least by my testimony, as our lives have not intersected.
I believe that if a follower of Jesus makes art, his job is to glorify God, this is a form of worship, and what happens frequently IN THE ARTS, is that when Christians attempt to make art, worship music, movies, or books, these attempts are [i]sometimes[/i] shoddy and amatuerish.
I remember when my church in Cali would do a play, I would just be aghast, because it was so amatuer, but I said nothing, out of Jesus' love, bless them, they tried.
as you know I wrote a stage show, thank God, its a big hit, all Glory to God, as IN it, it contains a very coherent Gospel message interweaved thruout it...I mean I start the play off on my knees....but the man I portray was a daily communicant in the roman church, so what I did was just to use the parts of the mass that extol the Lordship of Jesus, I excise the romanist liturgy....anyway, I have ten other cast members, ALL of them who do NOT know Jesus. If I COULD have cast the play with competent professionals who were sold out believers, I would have, but they are NOT there.
The other night before show, i needed hands laid on me for strength and blessing and there was NO ONE there, I had to call my sister-in-law, also my sister in the Lord, and have her pray over me, and Bless His Name, I was strengthened.
My point is, we MUST have Christians in the arts and media, why do think C.S Lewis is so huge, he was a GREAT artist, and a follower of Jesus.
You see, not only is art, art, as well as worship, but its a job, much akin to tentmaking, and you know, if a tentmaker does a shoddy, amatuerish job, he's not going to be a tentmaker for long.
If I was a songwriter, i would be writing in parables, in much the same way that Jesus spoke to crowds who couldnt fathom the deep Things of God, but in interviews, I would give it all to Him.
In closing, I believe that the best film I saw made about Jesus, was the recent "Book of John", because it was made with love and professionalism....and the best film I've ever seen (and here's where I'm gonna get into trouble) was "Lord of the Rings", because I felt Christ in that film and some of its themes, to wit, the ring represents sin.
ok nuff said, May the Lord bless you dear one.
| 2006/11/16 15:46|