SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : THE RAPTURE: ARE YOU READY?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

That's great logic and all. But, you deny Mt 24? Were is the mysterious pre-trib rapture in this scripture? Why can't people just accept Mt 24?


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/11/9 14:22Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I wonder how many would call Hurricane Katrina God's wrath. Or how about the Tsunami that hit Sri Lanka,India?
Now if the pre-trib rapture thought is that God will not allow His children to suffer His wrath, then what do we say about the Christians that died in these instances? Why weren't they raptured away from God's wrath?
Some will try to say that it was Satan's wrath, but when did he become omnipotent?
There is no mention of a "secret Coming" of Christ. He Himself said it will be as lightning across the sky. Brother Josef is correct in stating that it breeds deception, and confusion.
Imagine for a second if the pre-trib view is wrong. What happens when millions are "left behind"? The first thing they would do is question the validity of the Bible, their pastor, their faith. Sounds pretty much like what Satan wants to do to every child of God. So you can see that it is a dangerous belief to get dogmatic about if there is scant evidence for it.
One last point. Why did God pour His wrath upon His most beloved Child? Christ was not raptured away from the wrath of God.
I would be interested to hear the answers to these questions.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2006/11/9 15:12Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: THE RAPTURE: ARE YOU READY?


NLONG you wrote;
"That's great logic and all. But, you deny Mt 24? Were is the mysterious pre-trib rapture in this scripture? Why can't people just accept Mt 24?"


Not to get stuck into (and i won't) another long diatribe about pre, mid or post trib rapture, just answering your question ...

But the reason why pre-tribbers dont take Matt 24 under concideration towards the Church is because it's viewed as Christ answering His disciples questions in the capacity and context of their Jewishness (whom He came for first) rather than in the context of the Church (who would be grafted in later after the Jews rejection of Him as Messiah), and that because both Church and the moniker of Christian did not, nor could not have happened until after His death, resurrection, and the coming of Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost as our replacement Comforter and founder of the Church ... Thereby
pre-tribbers don't see Christ answer to what would be the signs of His second coming in Matt. 24, as pertaining to the Church who did not happen until Acts 2 ...

i personally believe in pre-trib, but have no problem with how other saints believe, because it has no bearing on whether we're saved or not ... i also have come to subscribe to the notion of being a "pan-tribber", as in it will all pan out as our Lord will eventually reveal to any blessed enuf to experience rapture without having to taste death WHENEVER He comes ... So all the more reason to just keep on living every second as He just may come the next ...

i really liked the little clip, very sobering ... But i also have to admit that when i saw the thread title i thought of these alternatives ...

- THE RAPTURE - ARE YOU READY TO BE REFINED TO HAVING SPOT NOR WRINKLE?

Seems to me that's the pre-requisite, and i could be wrong but i think we His Church are a bit to much bloated with worldly excess to fit our wedding gown just yet ...

The other title ...

- THE RAPTURE - ARE YOU READY TO FINISH HIS WORK BEFORE YOU GO?

i certainly have no scripture to back this up, but in my own spirit i sense that most of us have a realy escapist attitude with our selfish (my own feeling) longings to being taken out of here, and there's still some work left yet undone ... i used to long for rapture the same way once, but wouldn't it be so much better, and more like our Lord, if our attitude was about our becoming serious, to the point of alarm the fact that Hell is swallowing up souls everyday , to an awakening of our need to really take on The Great Commission ...

It's for this reason that my longing for REVIVAL has far replaced my once so self-centered longing for RAPTURE ... With REVIVAL not only will we be refined to being a Church without spot or wrinkle, but such subsequent holiness and purity within us will give Holy Spirit unrestricted capacity in us for The Dove to fill us to the lifting up of The Lamb, that He can then draw in all the vessels of mercy yet remaining ...

Then WE ALL can be ready to get on outta here!

 2006/11/9 15:20Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Jesus wasn't talking to mere Jews in Mt 24, but His disciples, His followers, His church.


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/11/9 15:45Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Quote:

NLONG wrote:
There is no pre-trib rapture. In Mt 24 Jesus clearly details basically the end just before His return to the kindgom. Notice He doesn't return until after the "tribulation of those days." What else do you really need? Just because a bunch of men with degrees say it's so, doesn't mean squat. I've witnessed long enought to understand that you can twist scriptures this way and that enough to support just about any wild fantasy you can dream up.

Jesus said it, that settles it, now believe.




Fine Jesus returns AFTER the trib, I agree, but we meet Him in the air, thats before the trib. Jesus doesn't come back twice, He calls us to Him, (before the trib) then He judges the earth (trib) and those who remain faithful are the sheep (not the Bride, they're gone) in the sheep and goat parable, Then He returns to earth (with us - 10,000s of His saints Jude v14)

Chuck Missler is very good on this, he's worth a listen if you want to know more scriptures that show us going before the trib.

Do you have any more scriptures that points to a Post Trib Rapture?


_________________
Ste

 2006/11/9 16:18Profile
RevivalArmy
Member



Joined: 2006/7/26
Posts: 28
DETROIT, MI

 Re:

Allhavesinned, please read this article by David Servant called "The Rapture and the End Times": http://shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_29.htm

He wrote a little more defense on the subject than I have time to right now and does a good job. Please read it if you are really interested.

In regards to the Body of Christ being only a remnant as opposed to the great masses that claim to be part of it today, look at the following scriptures:

[b]Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat [/b]

[b]Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. [/b]

[b]1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [/b]

Also in looking at the parables of the wheat and tares and the good and bad fish, (Mat 13) we can clearly see that there are many imposters.

Also, we can look at the fruit of true conversion. See 1 John for that. A true child of God does not commit willful sin and remain unrepentant, he loves his brethren, and he has the witness of the Spirit within himself. VERY FEW demonstrate these fruits of true conversion (see 1 John 3:3-9 and Hebrew 10:26-31 as well for proof that a Christian does not continue in any form of willful sin).

On top of this, we must not only have a negative unrighteousness (in the sense that we are free from all forms of known sin), but we must also have a positive righteousness. Along these lines, Jesus said that those who do not forsake all cannot be His disciple, that if we love anybody even in our own family more than Him then we're not worthy of Him, and that Hell very probably awaits those who do not help the poor or less fortunate (see Sheep and Goat judgment in Mat 25).

How many Christians do you know who meet these requirements?

(Side note: these things do not save anybody, Christ alone and faith in His name saves - these things are simply the FRUITS or RESULTS of true conversion, which proves that only a very small remnant have been truly converted and continue to walk in the holiness without which no one will see the Lord)


_________________
Josef Urban

 2006/11/9 16:27Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

RevivalArmy, I will read that article, I am interested and open, I just had a thought though;
does it really matter, I mean if we just do what God wants us to then if he calls us home, raptures us or puts us through the tribulation, what is that to us, we are to trust and obey Him, the details are His alone to worry about.

Keep looking up, our redemption is nigh, (well it's nigher than it was last year ;-))


_________________
Ste

 2006/11/9 16:34Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Perhaps the bottom line of it all is that "no man has the promise of tomorrow" So you or I could die today. Would we be ready to give an account?
Eschatology, as well as Theology mean nothing if they do not impact the way you live. So someone may have every answer to every question, and be able to give scripture to back every point, but not have a changed heart that breathes life into his beliefs. I know because at one time I was there!
Again, remember "we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ" so will we be like the servant that said "my master delays his coming" then he began to beat on his fellow servants perhaps with his unloving theology ;-) Yet what does our Lord say of that man? apoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
While I personally do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, and question its validity as well as origin it is most important to daily be ready to meet the Lord.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2006/11/9 16:56Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Roaringlamb, your questions...

God never said we wouldn't suffer, so we won't be raptured to stop suffering. The rapture is to take His Bride away while He pours out His wrath on the ones who didn't believe on His Son.

There is no 'secert coming' of Jesus but we will be called up to be with Him, that does not say He comes here to meet us (we meet Him in the air, the world won't see Him then)

I don't understand what you are saying about those left behind, if there is no pre trib then theres non to go so non are left behind. However if there is a pre trib rapture then those who are left would get a kick in the pants cos they missed it because they we're not properly saved.
(I guess those are the ones who become believers or 'saints' in the tribulation, but it will be hard on them)

Quote:
One last point. Why did God pour His wrath upon His most beloved Child? Christ was not raptured away from the wrath of God.



if you need an answer to that one then I guess you will be going through the rapture, [b]that[/b] is the Gospel of Christ, He took our punishment.

Revival Army, I read that article, I still am not convinced, he confuses a few things like presuming the rapture starts the 7 years trib, and that the saints in the tribulation are Christians, I can see his point but I think he's misunderstood where we pre tribbers are coming from.

Are there any sermons I could listen to about Post Trib? if they're not on this site could you PM me a link.

Ta

Ste


_________________
Ste

 2006/11/9 18:39Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Pan Tribbers Unite!!!

brethren
it seems to me whether one is pre/mid/post/pre-wrath trib (not sure what that is exactly, but i've heard of it)is not of any great conseuqence...at least unless you get left behind somehow. Anyhow the bottom line is, judgement begins at the house of God so before any rapturing happens, there has to be a cleansing by the Refiner. For sure the world will get the judgment it deserves but let us not forget that the world is in such a s terrible state in large part due to our own shortcomings as ambassadors. We are the standard-bearers and as such we will get God's wrath/judgement/correction (insert your view here) first.

personally i don't think the rapture is going to be a big deal coz many people will miss that boat because many are looking forward to that and slacking off...i could be wrong however, Lord correct me if i am. i think of Noah, he wasn't raptured out of the flood, he was raptured through, if we can use rapture in that regard. in fact i know of no saint who was ever in tribulation who escaped by any other means than death. now as for the return of Christ, it seems to me the catching up of the saints will be on His way down, and since ALL the saints are caught up with Him i assume that to mean that includes the ones who come through the trib.

ultimately though, let us seek our Lord and what He desires of us and do that. If any of us find ourselves raptured or in the middle of the tribulation one thing remains the same:

[u][i][b]God's grace is sufficient for me, for you and ALL of us.[/b][/i][/u]

God bless you brethren


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/11/9 22:46Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy