SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Another Question for Arminians

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

A old aged man walked down the street and said 'Where is the local gas station or concenince store?' The young man replied to him, "Stores are stupid, they make you spend too much money on what you need."

The man asked again, "Where is the local gas station or anything of that nature, I need something there.?" Again the young man replied, "Your not understanding sir, that place is expensive."

Rookie, I know that 'parable' isn't infallable. Your your the young arrogant man. If you want to point a finger back at me. Feel free. I won't refute you.

But I asked a simple thing from you. You gave me a different answer according to your own heart. Avoiding my question.

That older man wanted a simple answer from the lad. But he didn't get it. That's disrespect.

If I've in any way, discerned wrongly. May the Lord expose my sin before my own conscience and eyes.

I wasn't asking for a debate or a 'beating around the bush' answer.

Can you speak plainly, as I've plainly asked? Or do you keep a religious robe on? (It's a question, If any answer inside of you swells up. That's a reality check and you need to get your heart right before God. Why? Because, if my discernment was truly wrong, then my words would have NULL effect.)

Brother. To give you another example, so you don't think I'm trying to 'pick a fight'. I'll quote some of Jesus' words.

Matt. 7:9-10 (NASB)
9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?

10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?

Brother. Your that person.

Also, it seems I maybe in the wrong thread, asking this question (about a question to Arminians) because that other one Philogos started, seems to pertain to that.

I'm praying for you brother.

 2006/11/9 17:49Profile
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re:

Quote:
Brother. Your that person.



Dear elder, Rookie answered honestly, and in what appeared to me to be proper fashion.

If a man were to ask me how a note is sounded from a trumpet, you ask for me to answer you simply. Yet if I know the underlying truth to it, there is a subtlety that must be examined.

I could say a trumpet makes sound because somebody blows into it - yet this answer is as flawed to a person who seeks to understand as if I were to sell him a drydocked boat with a hole in it as if it works properly. To compare the boat to that trumpet in greater detail, the engine still runs, but that doesn't mean it will float.

No, the sound of a trumpet is generated by the vibrations it makes as air passes through it. The pitch of the sound is partially dictated by a great many variables involving the air stream, which is why a controlled level of air is necessary in order to play a trumpet with any level of bearability. To a person who wishes to understand, this is vital information. To a person who wants to know that you have to blow into a trumpet, it is absolutely worthless.

I am sorry, dear elder, that you took offense to Rookie's post. It is not an easy topic, and quite honestly, we take on the assumption that those coming for answers are willing to invest a deal of patience and effort into considering those same answers.

Let me try a slightly different approach:

........................................

Joshua assumed that there was a choice man could make... but Joshua was a man and not (apparently at the time) speaking in the name of the Lord.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
(emphasis mine)

Yet if predestination is complete, then this act was set in motion, and Joshua was meant to fulfill its portion before he ever spoke, making the words roughly meaningless. Every man would do as he was destinted to in a cosmic play, with no respect to chosen part, form, or interpretation. Because it was not spoken by a prophet, the words are not dictatorial.

...................

Maybe these would be better answers for you, for their inconclusiveness is by suggestion of the reverse posibility (that they had the ability to do what God had not wanted them to do, and thus, choose):

Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Deu 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.


Yet here is another verse with similar phrasing that is again suggestive of the opposite of free will being a viable medium:

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

......................

*Note: the entirety of the following is meant to represent a singular line of thinking. As it is, I am postulating a series of specific and related points without regard to "proper" theology or (to some extent) its correct notations. This means that I don't believe all statements below are theologically sound. I do this for the purpose of making it somewhat easier to follow, which can be a trick with the way I write, anyway. It is supposed to be a working reason and, I repeat, not line-by-line quotable.*



The concept of free will is, roughly speaking, one of preferred logic. There is no great way around that point. We know that God is capable of reaching in and influencing men. The best verse in the bible besides in which someone dies to this point (within my knowledge) is Ezra 1:1:

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

The book of Jonah is also somewhat exemplary in demonstrating the fact that God will influence men. When Jonah disobeyed God, a great deal of trouble was set out to rally him.

Yet 2nd Peter suggests that that troubling is not for God's benefit, but for man's.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(emphasis mine)

If his unwillingness for any to perish means that some will, either God is a masochist or He upholds himself to a completely different (and in some ways less severe) set of standards than He does man, in the light of God's hand guiding every nuance of existence.

In other words, God will not judge Himself by the same methods which He would call us unclean. It is fair for him to punish those without fault other than by His dictum whereas a forced penalty is inversely commanded us inexcusable:

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.

This is repeated again -- Mat: 5:43, 19:19, 22:39, Mar 12:31 (cf previous) Luk 10:27 (same) Rom 13:9, Gal 5:14, Jam 2:8

This altogether, in the (opposite) view that God maintains consistency with His judgement of man and His own righteousness (not altered by a literal hypocracy or self-injury on the emotional level), is the greatest suggestion of free will in the bible.

--As I said earlier, it is a complex topic with complex answers. There is no easy way through a mess that our forefathers had every right to lay open. The fact that we have not yet resolved it speaks highly of its complexity and/or our stubbornness. This is not a debate for simple thoughts, as often simple thoughts are what stir from it such discontent. There is no great "yes/no" easy answer for this one.

.............................

I know I'm stepping on toes, please know that, all ye who respond. I also know that some of y'all probably won't finish reading before responding or quitting, and I most likely have put off our dear elder who asked this question quite possibly without knowing it resembles a can of used chew to a great many who tread here. I also most definitely have not read all the other discussions on this same topic. I am sorry, but some part of me still forces me to hit that "submit" button.


_________________
David Reynolds

 2006/11/9 20:37Profile
SteveNoel
Member



Joined: 2006/10/9
Posts: 9
Michigan

 Re: Another Question for Arminians

As far as I'm aware the term "free-will" is not in the Bible. I believe the term was actually coined by the early church fathers. I think they use the term to refer to the concept that is in the Scripture. Similar to the word Trinity.

Steve


_________________
Steve Noel

 2006/11/9 21:08Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I am sorry lovegrace for not spending more time explaining how I believe that my answer "fits" with your question.

I have found that Scripture speaks for itself and that the greatest testimony of God's grace is found by the individual when he or she learns from that Scripture. Men can write reams of thoughts, yet without Scripture, it is a fruitless endeavor.

I have found that the book of Job is a collection of scripts or screen plays that play out every day in the lives of men and their God. This book is the oldest book of the Bible. It contains many different examples of how God works in the lives of men. The Scripture that I posted previously speaks about man's response to God's call.

Job 36:7-14

"He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; but they are on the throne with kings, for He has seated them forever, and they are exalted, and if they are bound in fetters, held in the cords of affliction, then He tells them their work and their transgressions--that they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, and commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, they shall spend their days in properity, and their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; they do not cry for help when He binds them. They die in youth, and their life ends among the perverted persons. He delivers the poor in their affliction, and opens their ears in oppression..."


In the first verse, the Holy Spirit declares that God does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous. He Himself has placed the righteous on thrones with kings...He is the source of grace sufficient for salvation.

You see, we who confess Christ, have been given all things necessary for salvation. Paul writes,

1Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

The fact that it is God who gives freely of Himself so that we might know Him and come near to Him, it is this truth, that is able to free us from the corruption of the old man. So in terms of the "script" that you point to, this is how I see the content of that script.

Now you ask about the actor and his responsibility to follow that script. This is how I see it according to Scripture.. going back to Job...

" and if they are bound in fetters, held in the cords of affliction, then He tells them their work and their transgressions--that they have acted defiantly. "

Here we find that the Holy Spirit says that God tells those who are His, how they are sinning against Him.

This is also part of the Script...yet now it involves the response to God's revelation to the individual. It is God who tells us how we displease Him.

The next part of the script declares that we have the power of self-determination...

He also opens their ear to instruction, and commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, they shall spend their days in properity, and their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

This, I believe is an example given to us in Scripture of what man calls "free will.'

And then the final part of the script, the climax if you will...

But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; they do not cry for help when He binds them. They die in youth, and their life ends among the perverted persons. He delivers the poor in their affliction, and opens their ears in oppression..."


This is just one example found in Scripture...here is another found in the book of Job...

Job 34

22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,

Again, do you see that God gives the power of self determination to man in this section of Scripture?

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff




_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/10 1:36Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Job 34

22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,


In this section of Scripture we find that it is God who determines the place and time of men.

24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.

So in terms of the screen play, it is God who determines the circumstances that men find themselves part of. This reminds me of another Scripture found in Acts 17

24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

So the screen play, that is the people and the set is determined by God. Yet there is more...

Again from the book of Job sited above...

26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,

This section of Scripture again points to the fact that God has given man the "power of self-determination." In the example above we find that these particular kings chose to turn "back from Him, and would not consider any of His ways."

Now again going back to Acts 17, what does Scripture say about the 'power of self determination?"

26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

What does the Holy Spirit say here? "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us."

The mighty men spoken of in Job were given this choice, yet the Holy Spirit states that they chose to walk away from Him and would not consider any of His ways...

Do you see that God has given man the power of self determination, but not the "right of self determination?'

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/10 2:22Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

David, please don't call me an 'elder'. I strive to have no look what-so-ever of the Pharsees (not saying your calling me one, but I just hate 'titles', nor am I an actual 'elder' by man.)

I wasn't trying to be 'mean' in anyway, if it did come across that way, I'm indeed sorry.

I will re-read your guys posts again, due to, I'm tired, (just got off of work).

May God richly bless you both.

 2006/11/10 17:07Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Lovegrace,


Most of the time now I write during my breaks at work from 12 midnight to 8 am...so I might not be a sharp or considerate, or patient, or etc..



Quote:
But, I pose something back instead. When you watch a movie. In a movie, does any actor 'choose' anything?



To go along with this question, The movie is a completed project. Those actors who obey get their paycheck. Those actors who do not obey get the pink slip...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/11 7:25Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy