| Ray Comfort Joyce Meyer|
I was not shocked to see Ray on Joyce Meyers show. Ray does not change his message. If you will notice he said to Joyce Meyers that preachers today preach too much on "self-enhancement" than they do on the Bible. A blatant slap in the face to Joyce who then acted like she does not do that. Ray is very clever. I remember awhile back John Macarthur went on TBN with Ray and Kirk Cameron - they all hammered home pretty much all the preachers that are on TBN. It was supposed to be replayed again, but that never happened, probably because they offended everyone. Ray will go and has gone to Athiest conventions and debated them on their turf. I don't like, however, the idea that he is agreeing with some of the things that Joyce says, and he should NOT act like he agrees with her. Joyce is a motivational speaker, not a minister of the gospel. She has a lot of practical things that can help you, but so does Donald Trump. She, along with a lot of other so called pastors, are just tapping into the greatest commodity on the face of the earth - Jesus - Let's face it, If you mix in a couple Bible verses, make people feel good about themselves, and be positive and not negative, give some tips on how to get everything you ever wanted, your book will sell, your tape/cd will sell, and then you can make a 100 million and give 10 million of it as a "tithe" and keep the rest for yourself.
| 2006/11/4 1:29||Profile|
| Re: Ray Comfort Joyce Meyer|
TBN's Paula White just had Donald Trump on her program touting how to use your God given mind to get rich.----all because of Jesus mind you.
| 2006/11/4 9:11|
That does not surprise me at all - If you blindfolded her and let her preach her prosperity message of how you will get back what you give and then had in the audience Doanald Trump, I think Donald would think to himself -- hmmm, that has to be one of the greatest ideas I have ever heard. Just tell people to give money to you, and say that God will bless the giver, and weather that happens or not, you'll get rich. It is without a doubt the greatest money making scheme of the century. However, it was going on in II Peter 2. It is amazing that I have never heard a prosperity teacher / preacher ever preach on false teachers in the Bible. Interesting. I would love to hear Paula's sermon on II Peter 2 - I wonder how and what she would do?
| 2006/11/5 15:51||Profile|
Tiger I completely agree with you.
I have become disillusioned with Comfort's ministry over time. I don't consider him a Biblical Evangelist, whether God does, that's between him and God. I consider him promoting formulaic methods that are dead. I find it completely paralleled to the 'sinner's prayer' movement of 40-50 years ago. Yeah, it's got some scripture to back it up-- and since then people have been propagating the sinner's prayer/roman's road like it's the Way. Same with Comfortism. It's not Biblical evangelism though, it depends too much on the flesh and the self than the Spirit.
This type of stuff that so many people are deceived by (Ray Comfortism) saddens me and I really think it is wrong to use Comfort's good person test. It's not Biblical, sorry. It lacks the Spirit.
People are free to disagree with me, but don't be contentious as this is my own opinion and I know many people probably disagree with me. :-)
I understand some may be saved by it-- but the ends do not justify the means in Evangelism especially. What does the Bible say concerning Evangelism? Basically, be lead by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will speak through you. That added with your Apostolic Authority should shine enough light onto the sinner to know he is standing before a righteous, holy follower of Yeshua. I've seen real Apostolic Anointed people, and they are like walking Jesuses. You don't need to add any gimmicks to get that authority in Christ alone.
Picture and read about Paul on Mars Hill. Not eloquent. Not formulaic. Not cliche. But simply and boldy, he was the embodiment and casing as it were of Christ. Christ didn't leave Earth, he sent His Holy Spirit to be Himself as he left the Earth. Thus, this Holy Spirit is Christ, and Christ doesn't need formulas, doesn't need gimmicks. You see Christ walking down Main Street in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and people who could/would hear/see knew what was before them. This guy had Authority from Heaven. He exhaled it. This is to be the model of each Yeshua-proclaimer. Not gimmicky Comfort-able formulaic propagations of the Gospel that have no grounding in Truth or Yeshua.
| 2006/11/5 19:42|
| Re: Ray Comfort Joyce Meyer|
I am new to this list but I want to say I agree with your entry. I had the priviledge of seeing brother Art Katz in Birmingham Alabama a few months ago and you sure don't see any gimicks or manipulation coming from him, but the anointing took your breath away. You knew you were in the presence of someone who had been with Jesus. I would like to go on record as saying the prosperity gospel makes me sick. A few scriptures taken out of context have turned God's house from a house of pray to a house of murchandise. God will turn over the money changers tables. Thanks for sharing. God bless, kathy
| 2006/11/5 23:32||Profile|
I am just curious of you that do not agree with/dislike Comfort's methods; good person test and all his methods aside, do you agree or disagree with the use of the law in evangelism? Support your stance with Scripture, please.
| 2006/11/5 23:47||Profile|
1Co 2:1-4 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.  For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.  And my speech and my preaching was [u][b]not with enticing words of man's wisdom[/b][/u], but in [u][b]demonstration of the Spirit and of power[/b][/u]:  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [b]in the power of God[/b].
I couldn't have said it better myself. I will let the Holy Spirit minister to you as I can't say anything further to convince you. We can argue all day with what Paul meant by the law being the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ but it would serve no end. But understand that the arguments used for the sinner-prayer/roman-road is the same that is used for comfort-propagation. ("It's Biblical. It works. It convicts." etc.)
I ask you to give me an example where an Apostle, Disciple, or Yeshua used the Comfort-propagation method. They did not. It is works or legalism. Yeshua followed the Father's will. He did what He (the Father) wanted everyday- everytime- and everysecond. Same with Paul. He didn't follow any of man's ways, no matter how much they made sense to the mind. He followed God. The good-person test is a man-invention, not God-invention. God gave us the Holy Spirit which will convict sinners. We don't need to add anything to what God's job is. We are to be the lampstand, the Ambassador, the mimicry or embodiment of Christ. That will show people what Truth there is in Christianity. Trust me. Nothing else works like a God-fearing, Spirit-filled, Holy Ghost-anointed, non-legalistical man or woman who speaks to another man or woman with authority from on high with words of knowledge, wisdom, authority, and healing all bound by God's will-- nothing can be mimiced or copied like that. IT has been tried. And it has always failed. But Jesus' way of death to the flesh and lifting to the Spirit is the way to show the world that this is Truth.
It's all very complex (depending on perspective-- as if one were to look into a rose, and in some ways it is complex, in other ways, simple), not so simple. We try to fit it to our own ways though and make it simple and easy (Are you a good person? Yes, well, then let me ask you a few questions! Etc.). Being the embodiment of Christ is either 100% real or 100% not real. And I say again, the reason many people are leaving the church (or have left it already), is because it is 100% not real. They see truth better than most church-pewers see it. Because they are dead, and know it. Church-pewers think their alive. That is the difference. The same thing with Comfortism. I believe Comfort earnestly thinks he is right. But I really have my doubts when I read through Acts and I see a completely, completely, COMPLETELY different take on the Gospel in general via propagation/habitation.
Thus this really calls for time for major self-reflection. Ask yourself, or I ask myself, am I the embodiment of Christ? Am I reflecting Christ's nature? Do I have Apostolic Authority? I answer no to all of those. I need to repent as I do not have the Apostolic Authority that God endows with those who will follow Him in Spirit and in Truth to Death and Resurrection.
| 2006/11/6 0:46|
| Re: Ray Comfort (is a man on fire with the Good News).|
I didn't see Ray on Joyce Myer's show, but I am not surprised. Ray is a good man, who has been given insight into the shallow modern presentations of the Gospel, and he went back to Scripture to see just how Jesus dealt with people. I think this use of the law in evangelism to bring somenoe to an understanding of thier spiritual conditon is what is needed to break open the hard packed ground in the stony hearts of the skeptical, self-assured, and self-possessed people of the modern world.
I have been an evangelist since 1984. My first response to receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour was to tell others who didn't know Him about Him. And when I tried and failed to break through to some people, I wondered what this barrier was. I have discovered that it's not Jesus Christ people are worried about, but their perception of the 'church' or 'religion'.
When you go out (in obedience to Jesus' command) and purposefully share the Gospel with people every day, then you too will soon discover some commonalaties in people's thinking.
Ray's methodology is not just a gimmick or a slick method of manipulation, but it is Biblically based, and from experience of using some of his insights from Scripture, I have seen some wonderful things happen in everyday evangelistic opportunities.
Before trying some of Ray's methods, I have read and put into practice the methods of others, all because I want to be more effective at reaching the lost for Christ. God has given many insights into the Scriptures that were lost for hundreds of years to others in the past (Martin Luther and the Reformation Christians), and Ray has uncovered something that was 'normal' just over a hundred years ago, and that is a right use of God's Law to bring a sin hardened individual's conscience alive, and therefore an awareness of their spiritual predicament without Christ. This use of the moral law of God only opens up the way to share the Good News of God's grace. That freely men and women, children and youth, can know for sure their eternal destiny, and how to live the rest of their lives on this earth with God's Holy Spirit lighting their way, giving them the deepest joy, and wonder at what God will do next in their lives.
The Holy Spirit, prayer and worship are all part of the normal Christian experince, Ray is on fire for the Lord, spend time in his company and you'll soon discover his passion is not besed upon a gimmick, but upon over twenty years experience of going out to spread the good news of Jesus Christ on the streets with people who are comfortable and don't want to know.
Some of the gimmicks are only Ice-Breakers: they are only used to promote conversation. Because we have problems trusting people in the west, mainly because of the in-ability to trust authority figures (corruption, lies and mis-information) the use of humour and friendliness are not manipulation, but just good manners when engaging in conversation with total strangers. How often have you walked past people giving out tracts and leaflets in the town centre or the man shouting that people are going to burn in hell? Ray uses humour only to draw a crowd so that they will be drawn into earshot of the most wonderful message they are ever likely to hear, that God sent His One and Only Son to die to enable them to be saved from Hell, and this is sharing sharing with them the most important message they will ever hear in their lifetime.
I say (IMHO) go for it Ray Comfort, and may the power, strength, wisdom and holiness of the Holy Spirit fill you to bursting (overflowing fountain of joy). May God richly bless you with your heart's desire to see countless thousands saved and in the Father's eternal family. May the Lord Jesus Christ strenthen you as you face opposition from Christians who are too frightened to share the Gospel message with their friends and loved ones and neighbours.
| 2006/11/6 0:49||Profile|
point well taken jordan. Ray nor you nor I can save anyone - with that I 100% agree. Led by the spirit - agree 100% - As far as his method of being non-biblical, I am not sure I am where you are. The good person test without a doubt DOES SHOW whoever your talking to that no one is good except Jesus, and that it at least leads whoever you are talking with to at least consider their own mortality. No method saves you, and I think you and I both know that. I do think his "method" is one of the better ones out there - it is definitley better than the "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful life planned for you if you accept him, quick- dim the lights, close your eyes, slope the church by 30 degrees towards the front so it will be easier to come down, and say this prayer" I, like you, am very disappointed in Ray's discernment. But you and I both know that money and fame are very powerful.
| 2006/11/6 18:41||Profile|
I am still not sure how you feel about using the law in evangelism, but, the following were/are strong supporters of doing just that: Wesley, Moody, Finney, Spurgeon, Reidhead, Wilkerson, Henry, Bunyan, Earle, Wurmbrand, Edwards, and Luther...countless others I am sure. And, yes, many of these men saw the largest movings of the Spirit in history.
So I am not going to go back and forth with anyone on methods or one-liners, the point I am trying to get at is that it is Biblical to use the law to prepare the heart for grace.
"I ask you to give me an example where an Apostle, Disciple, or Yeshua used the Comfort-propagation method."
First off, who gave the law? It was God Himself that gave the law.
Apostle Paul Acts 13:
 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Disciple Stephen / Acts 7:
 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Yeshua Matthew 5:
 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Yeshua Luke 10:
 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
Yeshua Luke 18:
 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Yeshua John 4:
 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
In John 8, the woman caught in the act of adultery was brought to Jesus by the law. The law didn't justify her, but it rather brought her to the feet of the Saviour who could justify her.
So, brother, I am not trying to put a set of rules over you concerning methods, but rather attempting to show you that using the law in evangelism is God's idea. I am not trying to dispute the annointing of God, the fear of God, or the Spirit-filling of God, but rather that the use of the law is included in the Scripture as well as all of these. It is not a man centered method, as the law of God is the mirror of God's holiness. It is rather evangelism that does not include God's law, righteousness, and holiness that is a man-created method.
And, no, I am not the embodiment of Christ, don't have apostolic authority, need to repent, etc, etc, but that does not diminish the truth as we have it in the Word of God. My accomplishments and state before God don't change what He has given in His Word.
God bless and I hope we find some middle ground.
| 2006/11/6 23:30||Profile|