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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : My Questions for Calvinists

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or non-good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a "thing" that required God to create it.



This quote reminds me of the Presbeterian Charles Finney's reasoning. To him sin was only a verb, while I believe scripture reveals sin as a verb and a noun (Sin and sins). Sin with a capitol 'S' is described in Roman's as having 'entered' the human race and death followed after it.

Wherefore, as by one man [u]sin entered[/u] into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Sin is older than the human race. Whatever Sin is (and we are not now talking about 'sins' as the act, but [u]S[/u]in as that alien spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience and operates according to the law of sin that was in our members) it is something and it is something that [i]exists[/i] in all who are 'in' Adam. If any man be 'in' Christ he/she is a new creature, etc. It is not just the absence of communion with God that a sinner must deal with (spiritual death), but the [i]presence[/i] of the spirit that is working in them unto disobedience (Ephesians 2:2) that gives them the nature to commit sins.

This Sin is described as a ruler and sinners as the servants. Sin can have 'dominion'. Sin is 'personified' (as it were) and must be 'died to'. Christ took Sin down into death and freed us from it if we are in Him. He is free from Sin- so the Truth that is in Him must also be the truth that is in us. The Cross is where Sin is dealt with. Not just the removal of the offense towards God- but the DEATH of our Old Man. Our Old Man needed to die because he was a slave to Sin itself. He was servant of that spirit that now worketh in the children of disobediance (Eph. 2:2). Whatever Sin is- it came through the door and entered the race destroying and bringing death. This is why men must be born again. they have to die to the Sin and come alive unto Christ.



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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/9 7:47Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

Here Romans says that God will give you over to a debased mind if you reject Him. Now does that mean that God is at fault for your debased mind? NO. He has sovergnly decreed your rebellion.



Romans 1:28 is one of a multitude of 'if-then' passages of scripture. If you reject the knowledge of God- 'then' He will give you over to a reprobate mind. This is not the same as saying God has decreed that man will reject the knowledge of God and then be reprobated. God may well have decreed the [i]consequences[/i] of rebellion, and in this way those consequences are irresistable; but again, this is an 'if-then' law that has predetermined calculations but the variables and hence the results are up to us. Otherwise it would be unconditional reprobation and would be completely out of step with the revealed attributes of God. Better would it be to say that the passages in question make no sense at all than to form a doctrine that militates against the clearly revealed character and attributes of God (Wesley).


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/9 8:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
A good question would be why did God LET Adam bite the fruit? My simple response is FOR HIS GLORY.



An older question would be, "Why did God allow Satan to rebel and take with him a third of the stars?" I want to be careful as not to agree too strongly with the statement that God allowed it "for His glory." Sin does not glorify God or anything else- if it did (I speak as a fool) let us sin that God may be glorified. God is glorified in the life of a sinner because the consequences of sinning justify God's demand for obedience. No sin can go with out a consequence that works against the greater good of God's creation. It is sugar in the gas tank. It is impossible that sin can bring about good unless God works through it to cause it to happen. Sin is destructive and could never be [i]constructive[/i]. So the issue has to be something else.

God created all things for His 'pleasure'. God has revealed Himself primarily as a God of love. God IS love (aGape). He has created creatures on varying levels with the ability to choose. In the case of man God created a being that could choose to love or not to love. The greatest commandment outlines God's greatest objective; [i]that we would love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.[/i] This IS the great commandment and it must be God's ultimate objective in the creation of man. God was clearly desiring [i]love[/i]. We can say that He desires first to be glorified, but the revelation points to His desire for man to love Him.

And this is the fulcrum of the debate. Is it all about God's glory or it it all about love? Does God seek glory in damning sinners or does God seek love by saving them? I would say that God would far prefer to be loved by saving a sinner (we love Him because He first loved us) than to be glorified by the death of the wicked. God has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked and would have all men to come to repentance. I simply refuse to believe that God has revealed Himself as the God who wants to be glorified by a vast demonstration of his sovereignty. I do not see the angels seeking to look into that at all. They desire to look into God's mercy and grace in saving man. God IS glorified already and He will continue to be glorified. The issue is that of LOVE. The great commandment is the revelation of His great objective.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/11/9 8:21Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

God left the possiblity for sin to come forth and be originated by man. God did not make anybody sin against thier will. He only allowed them to do it while they chose to.

Quote:
It would be correct to say that God uses all circumstances for His good, but God does not originate all circumstances to begin with, but man originates sin.



God does use all for His good. God is not the author of sin. Still, in His plan He has decreed that man sin to show forth His grace and forgiveness. How else could he have shown His forgiveness but to allow for the possibility of sin? God does originate all circumstances but He did not create evil. He uses evil to show forth His mercy but was not the author of it. Kind of like when God allowed satan to hurt Job. God did it to manifest His glory. He was not the one who attacked Job- but He allowed the devil to do it so that He can show that true faith cannot be destroyed.

This things are like saying "Why did God create the devil?"

I know alot of these things I'm saying go against Arminianism... but just hear me out.


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Kristy

 2006/11/15 9:39Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
We can say that He desires first to be glorified, but the revelation points to His desire for man to love Him.



Look. God is Love AND God is HOLY HOLY HOLY. God doesn't need us to love Him. He is self-sufficient. He didn't need us. He revealed Himself to us because of His grace. In His grace and love God is glorified.


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Kristy

 2006/11/15 9:42Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Reguardless if God "needs" it or not, He wants it.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/11/15 11:32Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

God left the possiblity for sin to come forth and be originated by man. God did not make anybody sin against thier will. He only allowed them to do it while they chose to.

Quote:
It would be correct to say that God uses all circumstances for His good, but God does not originate all circumstances to begin with, but man originates sin.



God does use all for His good. God is not the author of sin. Still, in His plan He has decreed that man sin to show forth His grace and forgiveness. How else could he have shown His forgiveness but to allow for the possibility of sin? God does originate all circumstances but He did not create evil. He uses evil to show forth His mercy but was not the author of it. Kind of like when God allowed satan to hurt Job. God did it to manifest His glory. He was not the one who attacked Job- but He allowed the devil to do it so that He can show that true faith cannot be destroyed.

This things are like saying "Why did God create the devil?"

I know alot of these things I'm saying go against Arminianism... but just hear me out.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/11/15 16:23Profile





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