Where there is a will... there are distant cousins you never heard of before showing up.
I doubt I will ever have to worry about that problem!!! :-?
| 2006/10/30 16:17||Profile|
but this is a personal opinion and has no biblical backing.
I can assure you, the source of is from Christ Himself. Pray and ask Him, and you will see.
No offence beenblake, but is this a new age website or a Christian one? "Pray and ask Him, and you will see" is not a biblical answer, because to be biblical means that it is contained in the Bible. That statement reminds me more of Darth Vader's, "Search your feelings and know that it is true", when Luke didn't believe that Vader was his father. If it is contained in the Bible, then where is it (note, that the books of the Bible has been broken up into chapters and verses for ease of sharing its contents with others)?
Of course I'm being a little silly here, exagerating Ron's objection somewhat, and perhaps even crossing some social taboos with my sarcasm, but I'm sure if someone were to present a [b]biblical reference[/b] in its context, that Ron would be open to change his view, considering he is someone who actually reads his Bible more than men's opinions of it. For far in this thread, the only verses that I have seen quoted, refer to God's will and not ours (and yes that includes Phil 2:13).
Ron is not saying that we cannot [b]choose[/b], but simply saying that, in his observation, the Bible never refers to the [b]will[/b] as a human faculty. So here's your chance guys, [b]give him something else to observe[/b], if its there or else respect the fact that someone is coming to you who is a seasoned man of God and is quoting something, other than from the book of John.....MacArthur (no I'm not "anti-MacArthur" and have been blessed by much of his sermons), and be open to consider that your theological stance may be merely superstition based on the teachings of some dead theologian (nothing wrong with dead theologians mind you, we'll all be one some day;-)) and not contained in the Word of God.
I have to admit, when I first heard Ron state that there is no will, in his Having Begun in the Spirit series (I think it was either the sermon on [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2164]Justification[/url] or on [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2165]Regeneration[/url]), I was thrown into a tail spin. However, since then, I have been looking hard for a reference to "the will" as a human faculty, but I haven't found one. Anyway, the issue at hand is a matter of pedantry, and the decline of the English language, where the dendancy is to use the wrong word to express ideas (take [b]repentance[/b] and [b]condemnation[/b] for example).
As with anything, give the world an inch, and it will take a mile. And if you allow that inch into the church, aches of tares are sown as a result. Consider this, if the will is not a human faculty but a Devine, then taking the will as a human faculty could be construed as ascending to the throne of God. Isn't that what Lucifer attempted to do? Going a bit far, am I? Well then ask yourself this, what is so bad about defining repentance as merely "feeling sorry, out of regret, of one's actions"? Is this what is worked by godly sorrow? And is it an adequate prerequisite to faith in Christ for salvation? Don't forget that it is the "little foxes that spoileth the vine".
| 2006/10/30 22:27||Profile|
No offence beenblake, but is this a new age website or a Christian one? "Pray and ask Him, and you will see" is not a biblical answer, because to be biblical means that it is contained in the Bible.
See, this is where I differ. I believe Jesus Christ is the Word of God and to know God's Will means being united as one with Christ. So many people in the Church believe the bible is the Word of God, and they say "If you want to know God's Will read the bible." This doctrine is not only false, it has lead the Church far away from her husband. She relies heavily on the bible as her source of authority, rather than her husband who is Christ.
When a person makes the bible the ultimate authority of their life, authority becomes objective. It becomes something external that they in turn they can use to control other people. "You must obey, it says so in the bible." This is the work of the Pharisees. When Jesus sits on the throne, and is the authority, then authority becomes subjective. We surrender to Christ. He is our PERSONAL Lord and Savior. Not merely an outward law controlling us. He lives inside of us.
The bible is not the Word of God and is not the authority on all things. Christ is the authority of all things, and He delegates authority through the vessels He has chosen to lead.
but I'm sure if someone were to present a biblical reference in its context, that Ron would be open to change his view
I would hope not! I would hope Christ would change His view. If indeed what I said has come from Christ, and Ron is indeed surrendered unto Him, then I need not quote the bible. Christ will speak to Him.
However, Ron has clearly stated that He needs a biblical basis. This shows that he does not intend to seek an answer from the Spirit Himself, but instead, from the work of the Spirit through men who wrote scripture.
I disagree with this way of study. Such relies heavily on an objective interpretation of the bible. A person searches for truth objectively by trying to understand and observe the text in context of his or her own mental understanding.
Truth, itself, is objective (in relation to human beings). This means that no matter what you think or I think, truth will be the same. However, the search for truth is subjective. This means that in order to know truth, we must subject ourselves unto Christ. Many people want to find truth objectively. They do not want to submit unto Christ, rather they want to know truth by words and reason, so that they can use the truth for their own advantage. Such is the way of the world. A scientist seeks after truth in the universe, so that they can manipulate that truth to make an invention of their own creation.
The difference is between seeking after Christ and seeking after His rewards. If a person is seeking after Christ, they will first pray, then read the bible. However, too many people read the bible first, seeking truth objectively. Such is not the way of God.
The Lord wants us first to submit unto Jesus, to take up our cross and sacrifice everything including our own reasoning. And then, once we have done this, the Spirit of truth enters into us. We then know truth because it lives in us, not because we discoverd it by an objective view of the bible. We know it, not by words or mental understanding, but intimately by spirit.
Why do you think Christ said, "You search the scriptures because you think in them you will find eternal life, but it is these that testify of me."
We submit unto Christ, not the scriptures. We obey Christ, not the scriptures. The Pharisees thought they only obeyed the scripture, and as such, they made many accusations against Christ, such as working on the Sabbath. Christ, however, made it clear that He was greater than the scripture by saying, "I am master of the Sabbath."
In addition to this, people want to make the bible into an objective authority so that they can rely on it as their source of authority. In other words, they have authority because they have a bible. Such is destructive for the Church. Christ said that if we have even a small faith we could move mountains. He did not say if we have a bible we could move mountains. This means that Christ lives in us. The authority and Word of God lives in us. It does not exist externally in a bible. And so, by giving the bible all the authority that Christ is supposed to have, we have missed the purpose of our own calling. We have replaced Christ with the bible. We are not doing God's will. We are not following Christ. We are obeying a book. We are living in sin.
However, since then, I have been looking hard for a reference to "the will" as a human faculty, but I haven't found one.
This is a perfect example. Did not Christ pray, "Not my will but yours?" This would mean that Christ has a will. Was not Christ a human? If Jesus, who was completely and entirely a man had a will, then we do as well.
As with anything, give the world an inch, and it will take a mile. And if you allow that inch into the church, aches of tares are sown as a result.
It is not our job to maintain control and authority over the Church. We submit unto Christ who is our Head and authority. We follow Him. We surrender to Him. We take up our cross and give all to Him. He is the King. He is the Leader. He is the authority. When we surrender unto Christ, he rules over us, protecting us, feeding us, caring for us, loving us. However, the minute we take control into our own hands, that is when Satan has victory. God wants complete and total dominion over His people. He wants to rule in every area.
The world enters the Church when we do not submit. When we try to obey God objectively, by following laws and reasoning, then we have allowed Satan a stronghold over us.
We must give all to Christ.
Consider this, if the will is not a human faculty but a Devine, then taking the will as a human faculty could be construed as ascending to the throne of God.
When we submit our will unto God, and we become one with Him, then our will becomes God's Will. This means all our works and actions will be done in God's Will. We will naturally do God's Will without even knowing it.
However, the problem from the beginning is that we sought our own will. We sought after our flesh, after our self, after our own. We did not submit our will unto God, we sought to have our own way.
From the beginning, God's ultimate goal was that we would be united as one with Him. By being united as one with God, we will share in all that He is. We will be glorified, and all our works will be glorious. However, the minute we disconnect or break that unity, we have not only fallen from God, we have become His enemy.
Unity with God comes by complete submission.
Pray and ask Christ. Any person who has submitted unto Jesus and asks, they will recieve. However, Christ cannot lead a person unless they submit unto Him directly. Obeying the commands of an external bible and law is not submitting unto Christ. Praying and seeking the Lord is the first step in submission.
| 2006/11/7 11:38||Profile|