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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The image of the beast

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Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Logic,

Allow me to better explain myself. I know that the "Lamb" is Christ for, "behold the 'Lamb' of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29

Get my drift?

That part of the passage has been already expounded on else where in the scriptures.

Note: As are the "literal" tribes of Israel. Hence, my literal interpretation.

Who are the tribes then? They are the tribes! Not to complex nor so far out in this interpretation. I'm not a big fan of that Left Behind guy but I did enjoy Ray Stedmends commentary on Revelation. He would be in agreement with this interpretation/application.

The best commentary on the NT is the OT. I think you will also find the tribes as being "Hebrews" there as well.

I'm not fond of replacing prophecies concerning Israel with the Church. Two totally separate ententes. We mustn't mix this key to prophetic interpretation up. That's how you get "Pre-wrath" interpretations! Just messing with you...

I did enjoy your latter post... :lol:

In Christ, bro Doug

 2006/10/25 20:25Profile
Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Hi Ironman,

Quote:
Noah was raptured through the flood, not whisked away from it



Don't know if you are aware of the pre-tribers use of this verse or not. Nevertheless they would say that Noah was kept above the judgement while in the ark.

I was raised a pre-triber so it is really the only interpretation I know. Until recently did I decide to look into the matter myself and turned from the dogmatic's of any rapture view.

What did you think about my view concerning the rapture?

"You may know all ready that I hold to neither pre, post, mid, or pan trib theories. I follow the tree commands Messiah did give in the Olivet discourse.

Watchful- Matt. 24:38

Ready- Matt. 24:44

Obedient- Matt 24:46

These are the only definite's I can find as spoken commands given by our King. When the caught up occurs is not that important to me as it is to some."

I feel an ever greater importance on a holy life, in or out of the tribulation. And therefore am finding less importance in end times events and more on holiness.

In Christ Jesus, bro Doug

 2006/10/25 20:39Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Dougmore wrote:
Quote:
I do not take this Lamb or Mount Zion as being symbolic.

Surly, there wil not be a literal lamb standing on Mount Zion? Baaaaa.
Lamb is symbolic for Jesus as Mount Zion is symbolic for Israel or Jerusalem.

Here is when you should interpret this scripture not literally, but symbolicly. Otherwise, you have a litteral lamb on a mountain for who knows what purpose. Further more, you have 144000 men having a litteral lamb's dad's name written on their foreheads.



what would the problem be having a lamb on a mountain? or a lambs dad's name on the forhead of 144000 men? it seems to me God can do as He pleases even if it doesn't make sense in our minds but let us remember that John saw these things. it seems to me most things God does don't make much sense in our minds but do they have to?

i guess i just see it as mostly literal because i have no other reason to look at it any other way. nonetheless God will make plain whatever needs to be made plain.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/10/26 5:18Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Doug
i guess i'm a pan tribber because it will all pan out and as you said our Lord called to live HOly lives pleasing and acceptable to HIm so whether we endure the tribulation or not His grace is sufficient for us to do so.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/10/26 5:22Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:

what would the problem be having a lamb on a mountain? or a lambs dad's name on the forhead of 144000 men? it seems to me God can do as He pleases even if it doesn't make sense in our minds but let us remember that John saw these things. it seems to me most things God does don't make much sense in our minds but do they have to?

i guess i just see it as mostly literal because i have no other reason to look at it any other way. nonetheless God will make plain whatever needs to be made plain.

Wrong, things God does [b]must[/b] make much sense in our minds, otherwise there is no relationship.

You have every reason to look at it another way. If you have a dream from God and it doesn't make sense. How would that be comunicating anything to you? God will give [b]meaning[/b] to the dream, just as He hsa in his Word.

God always makes sense!

It isn't to be exactly as what the vision shows, think of all the dreems and visions throught out the Bible.
Josephs' dream, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to him.
What does the [u]symbols[/u] [b]mean[/b]?
They arent literal sun, moon, stars. They are his father, mother, & brothers.

What does the Lamb that stands on Mt. zion [b]mean[/b]?
It is Jesus standing on His covenant. Not a literal lamb grazing on a mountain.

 2006/10/26 10:23Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Logic

Quote:
Wrong, things God does must make much sense in our minds, otherwise there is no relationship.



not necessarily. if you're married (i think you are for some reason) does everything your wife does make sense to you? is the converse also true? maybe this is just at my house! :-P but my wife and i still have a relationship! bless God for that.

i think of when for example moses had to hold his arms up for the Israelites to win that one battle. when he did, they won, when his hands fell they lost. God told him to do that and didn't explain why, moses just did it. even joshua was told to march around Jericho a total of 13 times, i don't think it made any sense to him but he did it. God doesn't owe us anything, He is God and what He says goes, unless we think we have a better idea.

Quote:
You have every reason to look at it another way. If you have a dream from God and it doesn't make sense. How would that be comunicating anything to you? God will give meaning to the dream, just as He hsa in his Word.



what about when one speaks in an unknown tongue and edifies himself? when God has me pray in tongues, i don't understand a lick of what Holy Spirit is saying through me but my inner man is built up nonetheless. Some things it seems to me are beyond the grasp of our minds like predestination and free will...

point taken about Joseph. i wonder though if maybe we are looking for all things to be in the Physical realm while to some extent ignoring the reality of the spiritual...

Quote:
What does the Lamb that stands on Mt. zion mean?



the Lamb standing on Mt Zion of course! :-P i'm not sure Zion is a term used for the Covenant we're under, perhaps you could clarify that for me?i know of Zion being used interchangebly with Jerusalem on earth and the heavenly one also which will come down from heaven...is that literal or figgurative to you? just curious.

Quote:
God always makes sense!



where is that in the word?aren't God's ways above our own? who has known the ways of God or been His counselor? whoa...through you i've learned quite a bit and have been give much to chew on...thanks bro


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Farai Bamu

 2006/10/26 14:38Profile
Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:


Quote:
God always makes sense!


Quote:
where is that in the word?aren't God's ways above our own? who has known the ways of God or been His counselor?



Truly spoken brother. Let us not fall into the sin of pride by declaring full and complete understanding, as did the Pharisees concerning Messiah. We are so feeble in our understanding.

bro Doug

 2006/10/26 18:28Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Logic
not necessarily. if you're married (i think you are for some reason) does everything your wife does make sense to you? is the converse also true?

I am merried.
But she is not God.
Quote:
what about when one speaks in an unknown tongue and edifies himself?

You are still makeing sense to God.
He wouldn't just have you blab to Him.

Quote:
point taken about Joseph. i wonder though if maybe we are looking for all things to be in the Physical realm while to some extent ignoring the reality of the spiritual...

Amen, that is what exactly I am trying to say.

You are makeing perfect sense spiritualy when sppeking in toungues.

Quote:
Quote:
What does the Lamb that stands on Mt. zion mean?

the Lamb standing on Mt Zion of course!

nope, as I said, It is Jesus standing on His covenant.
Mt. zion is Jeruselem which represents Israel. Israel is from whom His covenant is.

Quote:
Quote:
God always makes sense!

where is that in the word?


[b]1Corinth 14:33[/b] [color=990000] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.[/color]
[b]James 3:16[/b] [color=990000]For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.[/color]

 2006/10/26 20:42Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Logic

Quote:
I am merried.
But she is not God.



exactly, if you can't make sense of what she says/does sometimes and she is human, how then can you totally understand the ways of a God who is far above us? i'm reminded of Job when he tried to question God...then God asked him where he was when the earth was set on it's foundations...he had to sit down. my point is that God's ways don't always make sense in our minds not that He does nonsenical things, they may appear so to us because we all see through a glass darkly.

Quote:
You are still makeing sense to God.
He wouldn't just have you blab to Him.



right but you don't understand what you are saying with your mind that is. this is the point i'm trying to get across, it's not always apparent what God is trying to do hence sometimes what He says or does doesn't make sense to us at first, some things we will only grasp on the other side, i venture to say most things will make sense on the other side.

Quote:
nope, as I said, It is Jesus standing on His covenant.Mt. zion is Jeruselem which represents Israel. Israel is from whom His covenant is.



i suppose so, i haven't really delved into it to figure it out. however i always begin with the assumption that it is literal since JOhn is talking about things he saw. i've found that the revelation is more literal than i thought or than it seems. either way, God will make it plain to us because we are seeking Him out on this.

Quote:
1Corinth 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.



goodd word bro, my point though was that i agree in that God always makes sense, just not always to us all the time. that was the context i asked for scriptural backing to what you said. nowhere in the word does it say we as men understand all the things God does or why.in the fullness of time, all things will be made plain because some things still remain hidden from us. like the word says eye hath not seen nor ear heard the things God has in store for those that love Him...

God bless you bro


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Farai Bamu

 2006/10/26 21:51Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
i've found that the revelation is more literal than i thought or than it seems.


;-) Then you should be expecting a literal beast to rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
This beast will look like a leopard, and its feet like a bear's, and its mouth like a lion's mouth.
Furthermore, keep your eye out for another literal beast to rise up out of the ground, it will have two horns like a lamb, and it will speaking like a dragon.

Quote:
however i always begin with the assumption that it is literal since John is talking about things he saw.


Yes, he saw them as those things as they appeared to be. However, God does not mean for them to be litteraly as they appear.

As in Daniel, he [b]saw[/b] these beasts, but they werent literal beasts; the beasts are empires or kings.
[b]Daniel 7:17[/b] [color=990000]These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.[/color]

My point is to know when to take things as symbols and to take as literal. Moreover, pray to reciev the understanding, and it [b]will[/b] make sense.

Quote:
Dougmore wrote:
Let us not fall into the sin of pride by declaring full and complete understanding


I am not claiming to have full and complete understanding, but I am saying that we may if we pray for it.
[b]James 1:5[/b] [color=990000]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.[/color]

 2006/10/26 23:03Profile





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