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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 JUSTIFICATION by SANCTIFICATION

JUSTIFICATION BY SANCTIFICATION
By Robert Wurtz II


In these perilous days of backslidings and false converts, it seems natural that a host of prophets would arising crying loud and sparing not. So much of the goings on in the Church today seems to be off course and many have taken their hands to the wheel to try to steer this thing back into the way. It was so in the former days and it is so today.

What is the strategy in preaching? To bring a person out of their slumber by causing them to question their salvation. This seems like the right approach, because after all many are deceived into thinking they are saved when they are not. Some folk live pretty good lives, so sometimes the topics used to 'expose' a persons' lost condition can become very questionable. Such as it was in the olden times. Almost anything in the world could become sin at the turn of a phrase, and in so doing from the most 'spiritual' to the lowest sinner everyone in the building was implicated.

Honestly, there are probably few preachers in the world today that could stand up to the examination of a John Wesley or a Charles G. Finney. Their concept of 'sin' was so much more strict than ours is today that I have often wondered how many would even be considered 'saved'. Add to this the varying concepts of Entire Sanctification and there is a recipe in place for great awe and amazement.

Imagine if you will that many of us today are under the influence of certain concepts that these and other men have forged. What do I hear missing? I hear utterly missing a biblical concept of [i]justification by [u]faith[/u][/i]. What I am hearing increasingly is [i]justification by sanctification[/i]. In fairness I do not believe that this was the position of Wesley. I believe he had a solid teaching on justification by faith. He had a strong teaching on holiness, but it was balanced with true justification by faith.

Truth is TRUTH no matter what that truth may be. If I am zealous for truth I must understand that taking away from the scriptures is just as dangerous and sinful than [i]adding to[/i]. I am not the more spiritual because I strip the scriptures of the doctrine of justification by faith and replace it with justification by sanctification.

By now some of you may be wondering what I am referring to? It happenes that my great great grandmother was a Methodist street preacher. Her name was Amy Anne Vansel. I am told that she would stand on the street corners of Cole Camp Missouri and preach to the people as her husband stood with her. She was holiness to the core. I am told that none ever saw her ankles or her wrists. She was a woman of extreme modesty. The young girls would not wear pants (yes pants) in her presence. When she spoke it cut to the quick and she need not raise her voice.

In time she attended a Pentecostal meeting and became a Pentecostal as it were. She had children and grand children that served the Lord and some became ministers themselves. At some point in the history of my maternal family a view originated that a person could not be saved unless they lived a life of [i]sinless perfection[/i]. For them, their salvation was on the line at every moment of the day. They could go from child of God to child of the devil in the blink of an eye. I have to ask myself, is this even possible?

Understand also that their view of 'sin' is wildly different than many. In the 60's TV was sin and so was makeup (yes, cosmetics). Smoking is sin, drinking is sin, and so is about everything else. You may say, that sounds like a bunch of legalism? Have you not read Wesley and Finney? They would had sure frowned on salting your food and sweet foods. I have a feeling they my family had toned things down a bit. Ask yourself, what would Finney say about TV or going to the movie house? Just asking.

What happened you ask? The whole of the meaning of Christianity was changed from having a relationship with Christ to living a strict and perfect life. They had no real concept of [i]adoption[/i]. God does not rebuke and chasten His children He relegates them to the Devil just as soon as they sin (in their view). I am not exaggerating. There are many today who simply do not believe they can 'live it'. They think that one sin means they are lost and they can't handle the pressure. They just hope to hold out till their death bed and confess all their sins there. That way they can block God out of their mind along with the torment of always wondering where they stand.

Certainly some are just rebellious. But are they all? For some it is an excuse, but for them all? What about those who survived? What about those who are still trying to serve God? Some have had to make drastic changes in their theology. They had to 'relearn' some things. They had to learn that having been saved and receiving the witness of the Holy Spirit they were children of God. They had to learn to walk in humility. They had to rely on God's grace to strengthen them to life a life that is well pleasing to God.

Another thing I have beheld under the sun (as Solomon might say) and it is that of a people who so desired to be perfection that they would not openly repent of any of [u]their[/u] sins. Their sins are not 'sins' they are 'lapses in judgment' or some other thing; because after all, "I'm in perfection and my salvation is on the line." What a dangerous belief! Folk become mean spirited and don't even know it. They become unChristlike and wist it not. All the while maintaining an inward belief that they are 'perfect'. What a wonder? It has happened to me I suppose. Yet, it is my sincere hope and prayer that I never again become so wrapped up in perfection that I refuse to admit of my own sin when and if it arises. I pray I am never blinded by my own intense desire to view myself as 'perfect'.

And this is the danger of Justification By Sanctification. That we would become a people who either did not believe we could live the life or who REFUSED to admit of our sin when we sin. What is the more dangerous point? Some of the worst decisions I have ever made in my life were made when I 'thought' I was walking in perfection. Why? Because I had convinced myself that I could do no wrong. My conscience was clear so I could make inspired decisions, right? What deception! I have since learned that my objective has to be to walk with God in relationship with Him. He is my FATHER and I am a son. When I act out or do something that does not please Him, I [u]admit it[/u]. I don't act like it didn't happen or make an excuse. When I am wrong, I admit it. If my doctrine is wrong, [i]I change it[/i]. When I 'think' I stand, I take heed lest I fall.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/10/16 8:46Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: JUSTIFICATION by SANCTIFICATION

Isn't this the work of the enemy to steal our peace and joy by getting us to forget about what we have already received from God by focusing on what we have not yet received.

If he can succeed in this then he moves us by small steps into seeking to justify ourselves by our own righteousness. It's a dangerous game.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/10/16 10:26Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

InTheLight's:

Quote:
It's a dangerous game.



Yes it is. I think so often in an attemp to make corrections we 'over correct'. Like a driver who sees danger and swiftly jerks the wheel and the car spins out of control. Cooler heads have to prevail. Adam Clarke was a great commentator of the Methodist frame. He is one of the strongest I have read on perfection. He is a valiant defender of Entire Sanctification. I think His comments from Revelation 2:2 are worth taking to heart. I find it very convicting as I may have been guilty of the very thing he describes here:

[i]For the eyes of the Lord are throughout the earth, beholding the evil and the good; and, being omnipresent, all things are continually open and naked before him. It is worthy of remark, that whatsoever is praiseworthy in any of these Churches is first mentioned; thereby intimating that God is more intent on finding out the good than the evil in any person or Church; and that those who wish to reform such as have fallen or are not making sufficient advances in the Divine life, should take occasion, from the good which yet remains, to encourage them to set out afresh for the kingdom of heaven. The fallen or backsliding who have any tenderness of conscience left are easily discouraged, and are apt to think that there is no seed left from which any harvest can be reasonably expected. Let such be told that there is still a seed of godliness remaining, and that it requires only watching and strengthening the things which remain, by prompt application to God through Christ, in order to bring them back to the full enjoyment of all they have lost, and to renew them in the spirit of their mind. Ministers continually harping on Ye are dead, ye are dead; there is little or no Christianity among you, spread desolation and death wheresoever they go. It is far better to say, in such cases, "Ye have lost ground, but ye have not lost all your ground; ye might have been much farther advanced, but through mercy ye are still in the way. The Spirit of God is grieved by you, but it is evident he has not forsaken you. Ye have not walked in the light as ye should, but your candlestick is not yet removed, and still the light shines. Ye have not much zeal, but ye have a little. In short, God still strives with you, still loves you, still waits to be gracious to you; take courage, set out afresh, come to God through Christ; believe, love, obey, and you will soon find days more blessed than you have ever yet experienced." Exhortations and encouragements of this kind are sure to produce the most blessed effects; and under such the work of God infallibly revives.[/i] (Adam Clarke)









_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/10/16 11:04Profile
OverSeer
Member



Joined: 2006/7/15
Posts: 153
Geneva, Alabama

 Re: JUSTIFICATION by SANCTIFICATION

RobertW wrote:

Quote:
Imagine if you will that many of us today are under the influence of certain concepts that these and other men have forged. What do I hear missing? I hear utterly missing a biblical concept of justification by faith. What I am hearing increasingly is justification by sanctification. In fairness I do not believe that this was the position of Wesley. I believe he had a solid teaching on justification by faith. He had a strong teaching on holiness, but it was balanced with true justification by faith.

Great insight Robert! We seem to have forgotten that being declared "legally righteous" by believing in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, is the starting point of regeneration. God's gift of justification by faith comes with His gift of life (regeneration) which enables "growth" in Christ-likeness (sanctification). A man dead in trespasses and sin cannot grow in holiness. Sanctification is a result of justification - never the other way around or else you have salvation by works.

Grace and peace
Olan


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Olan Strickland

 2006/10/16 12:42Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I had a conversation with a brother (repentance preacher) over the weekend that brings me back to this topic once again. It happens that we are fastly losing what it means to be justified by grace through faith. Salvation is fastly becoming salvation by sanctification. This is extremely dangerous.

I pointed out to this brother that we have an intense focus on Romans 6,7,8 and I John 2:3-6; 3:4-10, etc.. but have a disturbing absence of Romans 1-5 and I John 1, 2:1-2, etc. The sad thing is that it makes for a sense of 'elite-ism' as if those who preach the remaining spiritual truths are compromisers.

We are fast loosing the doctrine of justification [u]and[/u] adoption. Many are ignoring passages that deal with the chastening of God upon His children and are placing a person's salvation on the line for everything they do that may transgress the conscience. That is paramount to God casting off His children for every offense. One question would settle this, "Would you cast off your child for one offense?" No! So we are more loving and compassionate than God? Ask yourself, Do I even believe in Adoption? It would be folly to answer, "Yes, but God's kids are perfect." Wesley would resist a lot of the type of preaching that goes on today. We have gone from saying that there is a such thing as 'perfection' to requiring perfection in order to be saved. This was not the teaching of anyone I am aware of before Finney.

The attitude is simple. Scare people into holiness. Extraplolate the most caustic scriptures in the bible and scald folk with them to keep them from sin. The problem with this is that it is out of balance. Distilling alcohol from corn makes for drunkeness and distilling hell and judgment from the scriptures makes for deception. Selah.

We have a generation that is intent on driving with a whip instead of leading with a carrot (as the saying goes). [i]There are few that have the walk with God and the grasp of the scriptures required to lead folk into perfection.[/i] Few that have the unction to cause a person to want to draw nearer to God. Few that preach with the Glory of God that leads men to forsake their sins. The substitute? hell fire and brimstone (See Isaiah 6).

The secondary method? Focus on what is WRONG and never allow them (individually or congregationally) to feel like anything is good or right. When you hear this preaching rest assured it is NOT the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is taking on the role of Jesus Christ in the earth and will do as Christ would do. Read Revelation 2 and 3 and learn how the Holy Ghost would deal with a church:

"To the angel of the assembly in Ephesus write: "He who holds the seven stars in his right hand, he who walks among the seven golden lampstands says these things: "I know your works (1), and your toil and perseverance (2), and that you can't tolerate evil men (3), and have tested those who call themselves apostles (4), and they are not, and found them false. You have perseverance (5) and have endured for my name's sake, and have not grown weary (6)+ they hated the deeds of the Nicolatians (7)

This is six+ one commendations. When was the last time you heard a repentance preacher hand 7 commendations and then 1 correction? Please send a link and I'll give a listen.

But I have this against you, that you left your first love.


Perhaps this passage was an anomaly?

"To the angel of the assembly in Pergamum write: "He who has the sharp two-edged sword says these things: "I know your works (1) and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. You hold firmly to my name (2), and didn't deny my faith (3) in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to throw a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. (Revelation 2:12, 13)


When the Holy Ghost inspires us to minister it will be with the content and Spirit of Christ. Not every church is Laodicea. Not every church deserves to be rebuked. This is [i]serious business[/i] dealing with the Church and we are going to give an account to God. We had ought to have heard from God when we go into these places. Does spanking everyone to get the 'right' one please the Lord? We may well get a big surprise on judgment day. Going around spanking on His people and not giving them the encouragement they need; pouring on the whip, but not the oil and the wine? Again for those who missed Adam Clarke's, that valiant Entire Sanctification minister of Methodism's quote:

[i]For the eyes of the Lord are throughout the earth, beholding the evil and the good; and, being omnipresent, all things are continually open and naked before him. It is worthy of remark, that whatsoever is praiseworthy in any of these Churches is first mentioned; thereby intimating that God is more intent on finding out the good than the evil in any person or Church; and that those who wish to reform such as have fallen or are not making sufficient advances in the Divine life, should take occasion, from the good which yet remains, to encourage them to set out afresh for the kingdom of heaven. The fallen or backsliding who have any tenderness of conscience left are easily discouraged, and are apt to think that there is no seed left from which any harvest can be reasonably expected. Let such be told that there is still a seed of godliness remaining, and that it requires only watching and strengthening the things which remain, by prompt application to God through Christ, in order to bring them back to the full enjoyment of all they have lost, and to renew them in the spirit of their mind. Ministers continually harping on Ye are dead, ye are dead; there is little or no Christianity among you, spread desolation and death wheresoever they go. It is far better to say, in such cases, "Ye have lost ground, but ye have not lost all your ground; ye might have been much farther advanced, but through mercy ye are still in the way. The Spirit of God is grieved by you, but it is evident he has not forsaken you. Ye have not walked in the light as ye should, but your candlestick is not yet removed, and still the light shines. Ye have not much zeal, but ye have a little. In short, God still strives with you, still loves you, still waits to be gracious to you; take courage, set out afresh, come to God through Christ; believe, love, obey, and you will soon find days more blessed than you have ever yet experienced." Exhortations and encouragements of this kind are sure to produce the most blessed effects; and under such the work of God infallibly revives.[/i]


If a minister cannot preach grace they are not qualified to preach repentance. If they cannot preach justification they are not qualified to preach sanctification. And if they cannot preach heaven they are not qualified to preach hell. We simply cannot afford to have such extreme imbalance in the Body of Christ. It does not correct our times to focus on the area long been neglected [i]at the expense[/i] of valid doctrines (i.e. justification and adoption). We need a move of God that will bring us back into balance. Reason being is that when you disciple folks in a particular unbalanced 'bent' they come away with serious disfunction.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/10/23 8:45Profile
mamalluk
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Joined: 2006/10/21
Posts: 18


 Re: JUSTIFICATION by SANCTIFICATION

Quote:
I hear utterly missing a biblical concept of justification by faith. What I am hearing increasingly is justification by sanctification.



Well, you've said it. It still won't be as unsound if "justification by sanctification by God" is preached , instead of "justification by sanctification (by man)", even though, Paul had preached justification by grace. With this type of doctrine, one hears "die to self" where in Romans 14, Paul would have us understand,

7For none of us liveth to himself, and[b] no man dieth to himself. [/b]

8For whether we live, [b]we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: [/b]whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

I see life in Christ a secure and joyous full life to living for and to Christ, with obedience and righteousness all due to Christ, the focus is always Grace, and the "emotion" is one of joy and gratitude. Whereas, if my focus is constantly to die to self..? To do that , would it undermine Christ's death, or a missing out on a life to Christ.

One said in the past how important the book of Romans is , and how one should read it over and over and over again with the teaching of the Holy Spirit, for it most certainly lays the foundation of the knowledge and understanding of justification by grace through faith..whereas if one will take only for what man said over this crucial doctrine, inevitably, one falls into confusion.

Man by nature, loves works, loves religion, works make them feel in control, works make them feel righteous, works make them feel worthy....in the end, one keeps at them, Christ is nowhere seen. No, works of faith are important, but reminding ourselves, those are works of FAITH, not of orthodoxy.

Oh well, forbear the above , no less, study Romans, again and again..

 2006/10/23 9:43Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re: JUSTIFICATION by SANCTIFICATION



Robert,

David Wilkerson said on one of the messages that I heard that if anyone was perfect and didn’t ever sin that he wanted to meet them before they left. He was expounding on what you are talking about. Without detail, he mentioned how often he had situations in his life that were less than perfect though he wanted to live a holy life.

Of course, the Word says to be Holy as I am Holy. We are told that our bodies are the temple of God in 1 Corinthians 6:19+20 and Paul’s writings had lists of things that are fleshly {Galatians 5:19-21}. Not even using these lists we can see many things in the Old and New Testaments that show us different sins. Then we have that word Love. Love the Lord God and love our neighbor as thyself. How easy it is to not be doing the things in the lists and yet not have love towards God or towards those around us. The word pride is similar to the word love, often people have pride that don’t know they have it similar to those who don’t know they don’t have love. I’ve fallen off the high horse quite few times and how glad I am that I am justified by faith in what Jesus has done at the cross and not my ability to be holy or perfect.

It seems to me that sin has to be defined when preaching a message of salvation. The problem when defining sin is to get to the message of grace, love, and mercy.

your brother,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2006/10/23 15:44Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Rightly dividing

Quote:
When the Holy Ghost inspires us to minister it will be with the content and Spirit of Christ. Not every church is Laodicea. Not every church deserves to be rebuked. This is serious business dealing with the Church and we are going to give an account to God. We had ought to have heard from God when we go into these places. Does spanking everyone to get the 'right' one please the Lord? We may well get a big surprise on judgment day. Going around spanking on His people and not giving them the encouragement they need; pouring on the whip, but not the oil and the wine? Again for those who missed Adam Clarke's, that valiant Entire Sanctification minister of Methodism's quote:



Thank you brother, thank you.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/10/23 16:03Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Thank you for this Brother Robert. Recently this has been such a battle for me, that I was careful even to say that GOD had begun working in my life(not at all the case). But because all was introspection, and focussing on my failure, my weakness, etc. I could not/would not look to Jesus. Oh there was much despair, and it seemed as if every message I listened to, while godly, and proper only condemned me more.
But then a brother PMed me a link to a message on Justification by Faith. Though everything was familiar, and I could quote every scripture used, it somehow had slipped away. I had lost the joy of salvation because once again I was trying to earn it.
Sometimes I wonder too about reading biographies of past saints, above reading the Bible. What I mean is that the majority of biographies neglect the struggles, and the doubts, and the seasons of pain within the lives of these men and women. Then we read these gloriious testimonies of men and women who seemingly came inot a wonderful blessing, and we seek to copy them without understanding the struggle involved to get there.
Even listening to Ravenhill, you'd think that the man never sinned again from the day he was saved to the day he was glorified, but I'm sure he had many many "dark nights of the soul".
Again I thank you, and I rejoice that justification is by faith in Him that justifies the ungodly !!!!


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patrick heaviside

 2006/10/23 16:20Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Gary,

Quote:
I’ve fallen off the high horse quite few times and how glad I am that I am justified by faith in what Jesus has done at the cross and not my ability to be holy or perfect.



"We can get to Heaven by our own efforts and strength" is the Devil's lie. We are dependent upon God's grace. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. When God resists us how can we [i]not[/i] fall from our high horse? I can't speak for anyone but myself, "I need God's grace to live a life of victory." When I start getting my eyes on myself I am like Peter when he got his eyes on the storm- I begin to sink. Just my experience. When I exalt myself as if I am something- God resists me. When the stinch of pride begins to filter into my behavior and my teaching and preaching- God [i]resists[/i] me. I have been off my high horse a time or two also and every time I get up thinking, "why did I have to get proud?" Why did I look upon my fellow brethren with disdain and thank God I was not like them? It is a vicious cycle. I have to come God's way. I have to submit myself to the righteousness of God by exercising faith in Christ.

I told a brother recently that every time we come to God we come because of the finished work of the cross (the blood of Christ). I am never in such a place that I go in to my prayer closet with a high hand as if I needed no purging. I walk in the light yes, but there is still an appreciation of what Christ had done on the cross. I am not [i]perfect[/i] and have gone on the record many times saying that. I believe in Christian perfection. Contradiction? Perhaps. But one thing is certain- if I am relying on how well I can do to make heaven I will not be there. If I arrive it will be by grace through faith.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/10/23 16:20Profile





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