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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A Question for Calvinists

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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

interesting brethren...

it seems to me that God is sovereign in all, our free will is not outside His will as a result all things work together for His glory. to me this is open and shut, my will is subject to God's will and while it may seem that free will and predestination are mutually exclusive on this side, the truth is they are not. they both serve God in Him glorifying Himself. there is no contradiction in God's mind on this matter so there should be none in our either.

consider this, the word tells us that Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life and nobody get's to the Father except by Him. the word also tells us in the gospel of John chapt 6 ( i think) vs 65 that no man comes to Christ except the Father draws Him...it seems to me everything rests on the will of the Father more so than our own will...then we look at Romans 9 and it talks of how God picked Jacob over Esau BEFORE the 2 were born and hand opportunity to do anything. some may say "well God knew Esau would sell his birthright for some bean stew" no, the truth is Esau sold His birthright because God rejected him in the first place. God doesn't react to what we do, we more according to how He has decided things to be. Romans 9 tells us that we were called from before the setting of the foundation of the earth...again some may argue that "God knew we would pick Him" but we picked Him because He chose us from before the setting of the foundations of the earth, furthermore NOBODY can come to Christ (and proceed to the Father) unless the Father calls Him...seems to me God has this on lock. then also we know that the Spirit of God is at work in those of us who are His, His Spirit, not our own while the spirit of the enemy works in the sons of disobedience. none of us had a choice in being born slaves to sin and none of us would have known any better unless God quickened us to it. again some may say "well people may use this as an excuse to sit on their butts saying well God will take care of it all" you can sit on your butt if you want to, i'm gonna try and see what God would have me do and do that.

i guess we are free to do whatever God has decided we ought to do...at least that's how i see it...


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/17 17:34Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
to me this is open and shut, my will is subject to God's will and while it may seem that free will and predestination are mutually exclusive on this side, the truth is they are not. they both serve God in Him glorifying Himself. there is no contradiction in God's mind on this matter so there should be none in our either.



That sounds beautiful. My question to dwell on this point would be, "Are the actors in a movie subject to the Director?" Answer = Completely. Because if the actor messes up the movie, they are 'cut' out of the play. (Slain in the Spirit, real term, not the pentacostal tradition, i.e. dead)

Quote:
God doesn't react to what we do, we more according to how He has decided things to be.



True.

Quote:
none of us had a choice in being born slaves to sin and none of us would have known any better unless God quickened us to it.



True.

Quote:
again some may say "well people may use this as an excuse to sit on their butts saying well God will take care of it all" you can sit on your butt if you want to, i'm gonna try and see what God would have me do and do that.



Yes, let's give God all our heart in all we do.

 2006/10/17 18:37Profile









 Re: A Question for Calvinists


OK you guys, ( brothers :-D ), how do you understand the exasperation of Jesus over Jerusalem - 'but ye [b][u]would[/u] not[/b]' - and Peter's statement (supported by his own bitter experience of having denied Christ) that 'God is not willing that any should perish' (2 Peter 3:9).

Look at these too:
Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, [u]ye [b]would[/b] not[/u] have condemned the guiltless.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, [u]and [b]ye[/b] would not![/u]

Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, [u]and ye [b]would[/b] not![/u]

2 Cor 12:20
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and I shall be found unto you such as [u]ye [b]would[/b] not[/u]: lest [there be] debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:


Do we not, here, see God being bound by [i][b]man's[/i][/b] will?


(Just for the record, I think it is perverse and hard to support the idea that God makes people turn Him away. I know there is scripture to support Him hardening Pharoah and controlling many things, but in general 'the people' know the word of God when they hear it, and respond to Him, and those who reject the word of God, He gives up to a reprobate mind..... but again, just for the record, it is possible to return even from there..... because God is gracious..... but, it [i][b]depends totally[/i] [/b] on a man or woman changing their will..... changing their mind..... agreeing to yield to Him however painful it may feel at the time...... by their [i][b]own[/i][/b] choice(s).)

 2006/10/18 7:04
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Dorcas,

The Biblical response is that they 'would not because they can't."

One thing that amazes me is that Jesus spoke in parables. Why wasn't he clearer in his teaching?

The answer is found in Matthew 13:

10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

The question is, Why were these people's hearts calloused?

 2006/10/18 9:06Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Dorcas

Quote:
Do we not, here, see God being bound by man's will?



this is true and you've brought up an important point. at the end of the day, God is still sovereign and how He has it all under control is beyond me, He just does. we can't escape the fact that if you read Romans 9 and some other of Pauls letter's he speaks of how the saints were chosen from before the setting of the foundations of the earth...

Quote:
(Just for the record, I think it is perverse and hard to support the idea that God makes people turn Him away.



in Romans 9 Paul says

[b]18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

this is the bottom line, if God has in fact chosen ahead of time whom He will draw to Himself and whom HE will reject, what can you or i do about it? if God hardened the heart of pharaoh, what's to keep Him from doing that to anyone else? and then is Esau was hated of God before he did anything, who could stop God from doing so with anyone else?


Quote:
but in general 'the people' know the word of God when they hear it, and respond to Him, and those who reject the word of God, He gives up to a reprobate mind



if one rejects God it is because God hasn't drawn him/her to Himself. JOhn 6 65 tells us:

[b]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

then in vs 66 we see that most of those around Him left as a result of them not being drawn by the Father

[b]6:66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.[/b]

being given over to reprobate mind is a judgement however, unless God Himself moves to draw you from it, nothing will happen. the issue here is that there is nothing man can do apart from God. the word tells us that without Christ we are and can do nothing but we can do all things through Him.

like i said to me it's open and shut, God is sovereign in all, He's called me to be a vessel of mercy, i'm not concerned with the mechanics of it, just concerned about what i need to do. i think maybe though our perception of what free will is in relation to God's will is warped hence the either/or. it's both, the 2 work hand in hand for one purpose, glorifying the Maker of all things. and brothers and sisters this IS the bottom line, Paul says so in Ephesians that the purpose of the Church is to show God's manifold wisdom to the powers of the air.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/18 9:13Profile









 oh no

another form of "ist" and "ism".

forgive my ignorance, what is a "Calvinist"?

weary, bartle

 2006/10/18 9:17









 Re: A Question for Calvinists

Quote:
He's called me to be a vessel of mercy, i'm not concerned with the mechanics of it, just concerned about what i need to do. i think maybe though our perception of what free will is in relation to God's will is warped hence the either/or.

IRONMAN,

Isn't there a case for saying that God gives man a free will which is as sovereign within its remit, as God's is within His, and 'choose you this day whom you will serve' is a genuine question from God to man...... because God knows that unless a person's mind is convinced, the battle is lost? And He wants no puppets in His family..... only sons.

 2006/10/18 9:18
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: oh no

The short version is that it is by God's grace that all men are saved through faith--and this faith is not of ourselves but is itself a gift from God. Salvation is not by works so that no man may boast that he has saved himself.

The long version can be found here:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm

 2006/10/18 10:52Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
what is a "Calvinist"?


It's the guy left of you.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/10/18 10:57Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re: Consequences

Most people reject the doctrine of God's sovergnity because they are appalled at the idea that God is sovergn. Still, just think about the consequences of this rationalization. What if God was all-powerful and you called Him "perverse" for being all-powerful? This is a touchy subject that I believe is very crucial to viewing God.

Romans 9:22
"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,"

Gods sovergnly in control. The idea that we deserve grace is the heart of the issue... We don't deserve grace by any means. If God, by his good decree kept me from ever coming to faith I would have deserved it. Still, God choose me before the foundations of the earth and decreed that He would reveal Himself to little old undeserving me.

Well... Why would God command something that we couldn't possibly do without His grace? Here's the answer: You are capable with His grace! Lazarus couldn't arise from the dead without God's help!

By the way if God wanted everybody in heaven He is all-powerful and cound've done that. If sinners could choose then why would God let them choose death if He doesn't want them to go to hell?

God chose in His secret decree for His glory to be shown in salvation and damnation: both done in accordance with justice and righteousness.

This should move us to preaching the clear and true gospel for the elect to hear and come. If it was up to me to change everbody's heart then all would be going to hell. Only God can save by grace. This should keep us from trying to manipulate the gospel to bring forth professions. I want to bring forth true converts.

Listen to John MacArthur's series on the doctrine of election [url=http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=10/3/2006]Here![/url] Or read John's sermons on election on [url=http://biblebb.com/mac-a-g.htm]this page.[/url]

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

Acts 13:48
"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."


www.cornerstoneorlando.org
www.gty.org


_________________
Kristy

 2006/10/18 11:24Profile





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