SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A Question for Calvinists

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread
SteveNoel
Member



Joined: 2006/10/9
Posts: 9
Michigan

 A Question for Calvinists

Yesterday at church a man who is Reformed in his theology was talking about his salvation. He said that for many years he was in the church, but was living a double life. He mentioned being a womanizer for those years and that he was in adultery. He went on to say that when he was in his 30's when he was truly converted. Then he brought up this question: "Why didn't God save me earlier? Why did he let me treat my wife this way for so long?" His understanding was that he could not be saved for all those years because salvation is solely the work of God.

My question:

Is this true Calvinism?

If so, does this not appear to put the responsiblity for his sins all those years on God?

Steve


_________________
Steve Noel

 2006/10/9 20:30Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re: A Question for Calvinists

Quote:

SteveNoel wrote:
If so, does this not appear to put the responsiblity for his sins all those years on God?



That's not Calvinism. That statement that is quoted above isn't Calvinism.

I personally am a 4.5 Calvinist. I believe in most of their beliefs except one. (I'll keep that to myself)

Think of it this way. When you go watch a movie. Did the director make any major mistakes in the film? (Don't think with critical judgement and think logically) So, logically speaking the answer would be NO. (Critically speaking would be 'humans are falliable', but in this case the Director is GOD)

God DESIGNED EVERYONE, from Hilter to Stalin, to Jesus to Adam, to Billy Graham to You and me. God designed EVERYONE and put us in our PERFECT time to exist.(Ever wonder why you weren't born during Jesus' time?)

My first question (which I will answer) would be, Who created you? Yourself, your parents, or God. Parents and God right? No. The answer is ONLY God. Why? Because He is at the ROOT of it. Without God, NONE would be here. Not anyone.

God was absolute perfect before He created anything in Gen. 1. But He chose (Why, i don't know) to make a beautiful story. Mankind falls and Christ saves it (at least part of it).

It was God's will for Adam to fall. You say no (at least an Arminian would). Well, Does man have more power than God? No. Then why would you dare say that man does? Because saying it was not God's will for 'Adam to fall' says that. Then if it wasn't God's will Adam WOULD NOT have fallen.

Honestly. If God is in ABSOLUTE control. Then, why would you say that 'God messed up'(Saying Adam's sin wasn't in God's will) cause, umm, if I'm not mistaken He is perfect and not like us.

WE are the clay. He is the potter. Can the clay move? Nope. Can the clay form itself? Nope. Can the clay do things it's way? Nope.

We're not robots. We are humans, absolutly controlled by God. And His authority is hard to see sometimes, but it still doesn't miss His sovernity.

I personally, am VERY VERY zealous for the gospel and Christ. Why? If "God is in control". Well, honestly, I was DESIGNED THAT WAY and 2, Loving God,others,Christians and the Great Commission among others were COMMANDED BY GOD.

Are we accountable for our sin? Yes. You can't point the finger back at God. Never. Never. Never. If you say you can, then you'll probly be in hell. (Cause you have no reverance for the True and Living God)

Predesitined doesn't mean 'foreknowledge' it means DESIGNED according to HIS ultimate purpose. (At least it does to me)

Now. After I've spoken this. I say this. That God being in ABSOLUTE control should be a burden lifter. Why? Cause who the Son sets free is free indeed. Because when you lose ur house and car and job, who is in control? Me! Ha! No, God, Sir! And He works things out.

Think what you must, but debating, and trying to figure out this [b]C vs. A[/b] thing is meaningless. Christ didn't call ANYONE to debate doctrine like this topic has been over the past few decades. How do I know? Because EVERYONE of those that debate this are sinning above their own knowledge? How? (You might ask) They forgetten the 1st 3 commandments of Christ. Love God, others AND Christians (yes, that is a commandment, written more than the first 2, in the NT)

So, my voice is spoken. Only because I'm tired of the Immaturity and the spirit of these discussions. On SI and in real life. They are UTTERLY MEANINGLESS.

You say 'we gain knowledge'. No my brother/sister, you gain hatred, you gain wounds, you gain sorrows and you LOSE a brother/sister in Christ.

And just to throw another 'curve ball' at ya. What was the first sin of mankind? It was eating the fruit of the ......... of good and evil.

The what? .........

K - N - O - W - L - E - D - G - E

Hmm, I can hear it now... the brothers saying 'My people perish because of lack of knowledge'.

Hmm, Good point right? Uhh...No! It's not "knowledge" in general that caused Israel to be destoryed. it was the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. The 1st commandment. Throughout that book, it says 'You have forgotten God, you've forsaken Him, etc' It's one of the dominating themes of that book.

Brothers/sisters, please, i urge you and everyone, to GROW past this. GROW GROW GROW.

I love you and I'm weeping for your Grow, which Lord willing will happen.

 2006/10/9 22:07Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: A Question for Calvinists

Quote:
Then he brought up this question: "Why didn't God save me earlier? Why did he let me treat my wife this way for so long?" His understanding was that he could not be saved for all those years because salvation is solely the work of God.



"Why did [i]I[/i] treat my wife this way for so long?"

That is the real and only question that matters.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/10/9 23:42Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Because of choice and ignorance of what God says a wife is. Because we choose to. Because Satan knows what a wife is supposed to be and he is apposed to anything the shows the Love of God. Because we are of our father the devil.

Husbands love your wives. Impossible. Wives submit to and honor your husbands. Impossible. I know no husband that loves his wife the way Jesus loved the body of Christ the Church and gave himself for her. I know no wife that honors and submits to her husband as she is supposed to, to Christ.

There is only one hope for husband and wife, that is, in Christ are they able to even have any capacity to love or submit as Christ does.
If, that is IF, a husband and wife have Christ in them and they have learned to love God by the Christ that is in them, then they have a chance. If a husband see's Christ in himself and knows that he was crucified with Christ on the Cross and is dead to sin and knows he was resurrected with Christ and is now living by the faith of the Son of God that is in him, he may have the ability to see this same Christ in his wife and love her by Him and through Him and with Him. The same goes for the wife.

It is not God that makes us not love, it's our own choice to not love. God tempts no man or makes no man sin, that is what man is. Christ is the only chance any person has to be able to be what God proved His Son to be, that is His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased.

Learn the Christ that is in you and you may be able to see the Christ that is in your wife or husband or children and able to love them the way Christ love's you.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/10/10 1:58Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re: the main question

Quote:
"(#1) Why didn't God save me earlier? (#2) Why did he let me treat my wife this way for so long?"


Thats like saying, "why didn't God save me the first time I sinned? He'd a saved me from alot of trouble."

1. First off, that man should be absolutely thankful for even being saved in the first place... let alone after all that he's done. God doesn't owe us anything. That man didn't deserve to be saved just like the rest of us.

2. In his permissive will he allowed it to take place for his glory. That that man may be brought to repentance for the sickness of his heart.

You shouldn't blame God for the evil in your own heart. Calvinists are to take full responsibility for thier own wickedness, giving God the glory due to Him in gratitude.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/10/11 11:28Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

mmm why did god let that happend? that is a question i often used to ask myself, and still do sometimes...but i now refrase it why is this nesesary god? what must i see/do/understand, and why you in your wicked carnal state treated your wife badly, well why was becuse you were evil! and besides from gods mercy and grace you would still be, and if the holy spirit dident restrain you you probaly would have treated her even worse.... God knows what is best, this is just my little mind thinking, god prabaly have a much greater plan for you, but when me for example , me and my wife have fighted and ive treated her very bad in the past, but now not so, but now i can be a living testimony from that evil to christ share goodness and grace and what he has done in my life,


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2006/10/11 12:00Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: A Question for Calvinists

Hi SteveNoel,

you asked

Quote:
If so, does this not appear to put the responsiblity for his sins all those years on God



I can see where it can appear that way for sure! It is definitely a question I have grappled with myself.

Maybe there is another way we could ask this question though. For instance, what if we asked: does God owe us [b]anything[/b] [u]good[/u]? Or even further, couldn't we ask: doesn't God [b]only owe us[/b] to repay us for our sins?

These are pretty heavy questions to ask ourselves but what really does God owe to us?

Well, didn't Adam have the opportunity to [b]choose[/b] eternal life?

And didn't the choosen peoples Israel have the opportunity to [b]merit[/b] eternal life? Even that righteous man Moses transgressed against God!

Were not these worthy representatives of us both before and after our fall?

Well, maybe someone would object to having such representatives and I can understand the urge to do so, but I would ask them, must they not then also object to having a representative such as Christ, for sins and for justification?

Too, I think I see in scripture where the Lord Jesus answers this sort of objection in the Pharisees where He says

[b][color=660033] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, [u]we would not have been[/u] partakers with them in the blood of the prophets....[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033]....[u]Wherefore[/u] ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are [u]the children[/u] of them which killed the prophets.[/color][/b]

Is the same not true of us as well, if we sin and yet say

Quote:
If I would have been in Adam's place I surely would have choosen to live



Well, these are just some thoughts as I have grappled with these things also. I hope they are helpfull.

Love in Christ,

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/10/11 13:05Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

One of the major misconceptions about Calvinists is that we are all fatalists. This is just not the case.

My will is my will and it is free from any and all external influences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God. My will
however is a slave to my desires and understanding. When I was regenerated through the work of God, he changed my desires and my understanding. I gained new desires to seek, serve and love God. Also, my understanding of who God is changed as well.

So, as a Christian, my will is still free from any and all external influcences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God. My will however now sees God for who he is truly.

Praise be to God, great things he has done, so loved he the world that he gave us his son, who yeilded his life in atonement for sin and opened the lifegate that all may go in. Praise the Lord!

 2006/10/16 10:18Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re: Sorry

I'm sorry but the traditional view of Calvanism doesn't support the concept of "freewill". Sadly some people may add too much or take too much off of the five points of calvanism. Holding to them doesn't make you a fatalist. Taking them to an extreme against the bible's teachings makes you a hyper-calvanist. Point is God is soveregn whether we acknowledge that or not.

Quote:
No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God.

Is there anything too hard for God?
Quote:
My will however now sees God for who he is truly.

The reason why our will has changed is because God has changed it. There aren't any hidden cracks in the universe where God doesn't exist or is not soveregn over.

This was a question for calvinists not arminians.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/10/17 11:39Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I'm sorry but the traditional view of Calvanism doesn't support the concept of "freewill".



GraceAlone, I respectfully disagree with this statement and offer the following website as my proof.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

Quote:
Sadly some people may add too much or take too much off of the five points of calvanism. Holding to them doesn't make you a fatalist. Taking them to an extreme against the bible's teachings makes you a hyper-calvanist. Point is God is soveregn whether we acknowledge that or not.



I agree completely.

GraceAlone, you believe that God changes our Will.
My understanding is that our Will is free from external influnces, but is a slave to our desires and understanding. Jeremiah 17:9 speaks of the unregenerate person, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" The answer is...God. Ezekiel 36:25-27 speaks of God gives us 'a heart of flesh and removes our heart of stone'.

We both agree that God is soverign, but my understanding of traditional Calvinism is that man has always had a 'Free Will'. This Free Will was tainted in the Fall of Adam and is not able to reach out to God because it is in bondage to our desires. When God regenerates us, our desires change and our understanding of who God is changes. Therefore our Free Will now is able to respond to him.

Quote:
This was a question for calvinists not arminians.



I am not sure if this was directed toward myself, but if it is then I must say that I strongly believe in the Doctrine of Grace.

 2006/10/17 14:59Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy