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 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



This articulation has great meaning to me personally, had almost forgotten of it while drawing out all these references ... About a year and a half ago and have made mention of this elsewhere, but, had been doing some work around Los Angles, a very exhausting time, a world wind of activity. It was the first time meeting up with Greg (Who runs this site for everyone else) as well as another unseen brother who frequents here and is also a outdoor preacher to the homeless ...

But it was on the plane trip back, musing and thanking God for everything that had transpired, a great peace and a great ... depletion, a sense of being spiritually spent, a sweet joy and a great love .. just quiet, restful worship and prayer. Cannot say honestly that I 'hear' from the Lord in some of the more often expressed ways often, it is usually more of the 'impression' of things ... I digress. I asked the Lord; "Lord, what [i]is it[/i] that You are doing"? And by that meant not my personal circumstance but everywhere. And the return was as loud as it gets and the fastidiousness of response grabbed me; "I am reconciling the world unto Myself".

I was dumbfounded and just wept. Praise God.



Oh that we might see and understand beyond what we believe to be because of our traditional way that does not speak of intimacy, the heart, but legalism, the letter, that we call it "faith".

May God help us to see it, crsschk.



:-) :-(

 2006/10/10 10:20
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7468
Mississippi

 Re:

Ormly wrote:

Quote:
I trust this simple faith in God is sufficient for my Yak shepherd friend in Siberia who died never hearing of the kingdom of God from a missionary or passing evangelist. I believe it is.



To declare a person like this redeemed is a form of judging. To determine a person's eternal destiny belongs to the realm of God, not ours nor anyone else's, including Ormly.

It might be of interest to you to know that God knows who will accept him and He can and does reveal Himself to persons who are beyond the reach of the Gospel. We do not know how often it happens - people familar with the Muslim world will tell you it is still happening - but there are some documented cases. Consider: Sammy Morris - the black boy from Africa in the early 1900s; Jayapradha Bendela, FL - a six year old girl from India (still living, is now in her 50s AND she is planning to come see us in a month!!); Bilquis Sheikh, the Muslim lady from Pakistan. Bilquis descrbed this event/process in her book "I Dared to Call Him Father".

Since God knows who will respond to him, He will supernaturally reveal himself to the unreachable at the proper time. God is bigger and greater then man and is not limited by man's limitations. This however, does not cancel Jesus' last command: "Go ye...teach all nations.." Matthew 28:19

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/10/10 11:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ginnyrose wrote:
Ormly wrote:

Quote:
I trust this simple faith in God is sufficient for my Yak shepherd friend in Siberia who died never hearing of the kingdom of God from a missionary or passing evangelist. I believe it is.



To declare a person like this redeemed is a form of judging. To determine a person's eternal destiny belongs to the realm of God, not ours nor anyone else's, including Ormly.

It might be of interest to you to know that God knows who will accept him and He can and does reveal Himself to persons who are beyond the reach of the Gospel. We do not know how often it happens - people familar with the Muslim world will tell you it is still happening - but there are some documented cases. Consider: Sammy Morris - the black boy from Africa in the early 1900s; Jayapradha Bendela, FL - a six year old girl from India (still living, is now in her 50s AND she is planning to come see us in a month!!); Bilquis Sheikh, the Muslim lady from Pakistan. Bilquis descrbed this event/process in her book "I Dared to Call Him Father".

Since God knows who will respond to him, He will supernaturally reveal himself to the unreachable at the proper time. God is bigger and greater then man and is not limited by man's limitations. This however, does not cancel Jesus' last command: "Go ye...teach all nations.." Matthew 28:19

ginnyrose



Its so nice to know someone agrees with you but even nicer if they recognise it. Oh well, can't have it all, I suppose, half is better than nothing.

:-(

 2006/10/10 11:34









 Re:

Hi all, I don't say "too much" on here so therefore if I'm putting this in the wrong area, I'm sorry. I'm going to venture out.

I investigated Universalism a few years ago and have kinda poked at it since Carlton Pierson went to that side but I'm still not sold that this is "the way." I mean, what if you are wrong and someone you should have sounded the alarm to and told them to repent - you didn't and therefore, they lost their soul? Their blood is on your hands.

I've been on many religious "bandwagons" in my time but I think we need to be careful about this one. I received an email this week and because of it, I just unsubscribed because of a statement someone made in it.

A man called Tim W. wrote this in one of the universalist emails I recieved. If this is how they truly believe, I can't subscribe to this belief....

My life has changed, and I've experienced so much freedom in my soul and in my
mind. Understanding God's infinite Love continues to baffle and liberate me
more every day.

Because I'm a pianist, and a Southern Gospel Music lover - I take the ferry over
to a nearby City about once a month or so to help a Gay Affirming church there
with their music. I've had several conversations, and visits with the Pastor
who is a friend of mine - and, have come to observe some things that just make
me shake my head.

1. While wanting to embrace freedom from the law (especially where sexual
orientation is concerned), they still hang on to the need for repentance and
salvation. Every Sunday night, a call is made to say the "Sinner's Prayer".
They can't seem to realize that even this very requirement is the act of mixing
law with grace.

Tim W's statement ended.

This is what got me, "they still hang on to the need for repentance and salvation." If this is the crux of what they believe, then they are headed down the wrong path, imho.

Joel 2.12
“ Now, therefore,” says the LORD, “ Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.”

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Acts 26:19-20
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Lisa

 2006/10/10 14:43
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7468
Mississippi

 Answer questions

Jordan,

Thingsabove and Chariot asked you some interesting questions...would you mind answering them? I would love to see your response.

I am also curious: are you asking these questions - about Universalism - because you are dealing with someone who is challenging you or are you asking them for yourself?

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/10/10 21:53Profile









 Re: Universalism


Does anyone know whether Univesalists believe in hell?

 2006/10/11 8:03









 Re: Answer questions

ginnyrose,
I've been busy lately (currently on vacation, you could say) so I'm sorry for not responding to anyone's questions sooner...

I am asking these questions as someone who is just asking them... I don't take an active stand on Universalism, if that is what you were wondering, but I am interested in discussing it nonetheless.

dorcas,
From my understanding, Universalists for the majority do not believe in Hell. But there are a lot that believe Hell is a temporary place for people that have lived unreconciled to God-- and then God works on their soul in Hell. But God sending people to an eternity in Hell? That's simple atheism, the Universalist would say.

thingsabove,
(incase you fail to recognize, I am writing as a Universalist for the sake of the discussion, not really as myself)
I don't take what I quoted as really Scripture, because the Bible was written by erroneous men, one cannot take it as the very Word of God, literally. And thus one must use reason (logos) in identifying their theology. It is not black and white. Not much can be proved from the Bible thus, but much can be proved from reason (science, for example). To the Universalist, the Bible is to be taken more as a bunch of fairy-tales put together, nothing more. So one can use it to illustrate a point, but one does not take it as de facto God's word. So it doesn't change the Universalist's stance because the stance of the Universalist is based on reason, science, or the mind, and not on what the Bible says. To them reason says that God, the God they believe in to be all-merciful, is not going to punish the wicked to eternal hell-fire no matter their sin.

Chariot,
And then how are you aware that that revelation is God's and not your own making? Are you ever able to come to a point where you *know* that God has revealed Himself to you? Most people would say that's unedifying to ponder, and futile to discuss. But I would like to say that it is not.


Jordan

 2006/10/11 12:37









 Re:

Quote:

jordanamo wrote:
ginnyrose,
I've been busy lately (currently on vacation, you could say) so I'm sorry for not responding to anyone's questions sooner...

I am asking these questions as someone who is just asking them... I don't take an active stand on Universalism, if that is what you were wondering, but I am interested in discussing it nonetheless.

dorcas,
From my understanding, Universalists for the majority do not believe in Hell. But there are a lot that believe Hell is a temporary place for people that have lived unreconciled to God-- and then God works on their soul in Hell. But God sending people to an eternity in Hell? That's simple atheism, the Universalist would say.

thingsabove,
(incase you fail to recognize, I am writing as a Universalist for the sake of the discussion, not really as myself)
I don't take what I quoted as really Scripture, because the Bible was written by erroneous men, one cannot take it as the very Word of God, literally. And thus one must use reason (logos) in identifying their theology. It is not black and white. Not much can be proved from the Bible thus, but much can be proved from reason (science, for example). To the Universalist, the Bible is to be taken more as a bunch of fairy-tales put together, nothing more. So one can use it to illustrate a point, but one does not take it as de facto God's word. So it doesn't change the Universalist's stance because the stance of the Universalist is based on reason, science, or the mind, and not on what the Bible says. To them reason says that God, the God they believe in to be all-merciful, is not going to punish the wicked to eternal hell-fire no matter their sin.

Chariot,
And then how are you aware that that revelation is God's and not your own making? Are you ever able to come to a point where you *know* that God has revealed Himself to you? Most people would say that's unedifying to ponder, and futile to discuss. But I would like to say that it is not.
Jordan



Since man's reasoning is as shifting sand, your standing with it seems quite foolish; futile at best. Surely, with your certainty about things, especially the Bible and its testimony of those who have dealt with God, you can come up with a better deal for yourself. Gird up your loins and be a man. Begin by thinking.

 2006/10/11 15:04
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7468
Mississippi

 Re:

Jordan,

Thank-you for answering my question(s). So you were on vacation? And now I am fixing to leave for the weekend as well and will likely not see your response to my post until next week.

Jordan, it seems to me the heart of Universalism is rooted in disbelief in God, fueled by a distate for the concept of hell: God would not send anyone to hell permently: he is TOO loving! At the core one is using his own wishes, likes to determine reality and that, brother, is very serious. It is deplacing the Jehovah God from his throne and putting yourself there! This is direct violation of the first commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." I really do not think you want that, do you?

I can well understand why you may want to believe in Universalism: you may have loved ones who will miss heaven and for them you grieve. This is understandable...I can identify with that. But that will not change reality, brother! That is why Jesus alowed himself to suffer at the hands of man in order to redeem us from that pit.

Jordan, I am going to ask you to try to visualize the crucifixtion, and then try to feel the pain that Jesus did. Can you? The best I can do is remember how painful the first childbirth was I had. Not good, but a start, nevertheless. Jesus suffered so much for us to make it so one does NOT have to go to hell. Now to say hell is temporal flies in face of Biblical evidence and for this reason Jesus suffered to redeem us. Do you understand this?

Quote:
I don't take what I quoted as really Scripture, because the Bible was written by erroneous men, one cannot take it as the very Word of God, literally. And thus one must use reason (logos) in identifying their theology. It is not black and white. Not much can be proved from the Bible thus, but much can be proved from reason (science, for example).



Is this your opinion? Sorry, but I get a tad bit confused when reading your post...

Now let me ask you some more questions:
Where does the concept of eternity come from?
Where does the concept of goodness come from?
Where does the knowledge of evil come from?
Where does the idea of a Supreme Being come from?
Why do you have a fear in your heart about hell?
Why do you have a sense that you may be in error? and want a discussion? Where does that come from?
Why do you feel the need to disprove the validity of the Word of God?
This is just to get your started. Think....and if you have more questions, come back and there are many on this forum that will be delighted to help you.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/10/12 7:42Profile









 Re:

Gah, I thought I might be taken wrongly... let me reiterate, I do not believe in Universalism. I only said that sort of to be an 'devil's advocate' for the sake of the discussion, sorry for not being more clear!

Not being the devil's advocate now, :-) the Universalist follows his reason, his mind, which by default is already corrupted by the fall, and thus the reason he uses will never amount to anything. His reason might even make sense, and may have certain "facts" to back it up. However, we must have God's reason (logos) imputed & imparted unto us-- i.e., born again. The failure of the Universalist is thus hubris-- pride, ultimately. He fails to recognize that his reason amounts to nothing, that he is in need of the Savior's cleansing. This is why so few of the intellectuals (or, "rich"), comparatively, are saved, and so many of the poor and meek come to know Jesus.

IT is an age-old debate though. One cannot really refute what a Universalist says, because his basis is on the corrupted man's reason. The only way I suppose you could refute him would be to show him God's reason laid throughout in the Bible, pray that God puts His reason upon his heart, and then let him choose for himself which God he will serve. The God of the Bible: mysterious, sovereign, just, virtuous, holy, mysterious, righteous, true, and again, mysterious. His ways are not our ways. But the god of the Universalist is one of the flesh, the god that makes sense to the human, dead, mind.

This "god" has crept into most of the church. It is the "god" that they presume to worship come sunday-morning. Universalism is more universal than the Church of Universalism or the Unitarian Universalists, it is found in most churches, right at the pulpit. "he" may be found in the scriptures, twisted & diluted, and "they" will enjoy and drink of "his" cup, "they" will go through "his" 'communion', go through "his" 'praise' and this "god" will do as much as the gods of old, nothing but miraculous gimmicks-- but this god is will never be as mysterious, awe-ful, holy, and righteous as Yahweh.

"he" doesn't make sense to us Christians. "he" is not worthy to be served. It is like someone from a different family saying that their father is your father. We, though, know and hear our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be His name. His kingdom shall come, His will shall be done. In earth, as it is in Heaven. Amen. :-)

Jordan

 2006/10/13 13:04





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