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 Universalism

As in Adam all died, so in Christ, all are made alive-- is this not true? Is it not true that Jesus died for all of our sins? So you throw at me some passages from Paul. Okay, sure. But how do you know that isn't against Jesus? So then you throw at me some passages from Jesus, well how do you know it was from Jesus? Furthermore, are you sure that Bible in your hands is as inerrant as you think it is? If so, and if you say revelation, what can you base that on if you presuppose that the Bible is already inerrant? Visions and dreams are experienced by Shamans as much as Christians. Because Universalism covers a broad array of issues-- i.e., most Universalists do not take the Bible as inerrant, we must cover these if we are to cover Universalism-- that essentially, all are universally saved and cleansed with the blood of Jesus either now or after death because of the gravity of Jesus' death-- that it being so so so so huge, that it is compelled to basically save everyone, no matter their standing in the now, due to the blood of Jesus.

Try not to be too broad.. "it's just all about faith" or "the Bible says so"... "it makes sense to me"... dig down deep into why you believe God has appointed (depending on your eschatological viewpoint) people to be saved through Jesus by an act of free-will (or compulsion, if your hyper-calvinstic leaning) only and that others will not be able to enter into this either due to election or choice and will be sentenced or sentence themselves to a eternity of Hell-fire separation from God because they refused to repent and turn to God during their short-lived lives.-- Is this seemingly culturally used as a moral 'control agent,' or whatnot and Hell just has no true validity, as many Universalists propose? Understand this view is rampant among American and English Evangelicism even though it may not be apparent on face-value.

Discuss, keep it friendly. :)

Jordan

 2006/10/9 0:01









 Re: Universalism

O.K. lets try and reason it a little. First off you quoted scripture to prove your universalist stance. How do "YOU" know that that scripture you quoted is really scripture? What if it's not? Then the belief you propesed cannot be proven either.
Address this and then we can maybe move on.
God bless, John

 2006/10/9 5:03









 Re:

Quote:
Universalism-- that essentially, all are universally saved and cleansed with the blood of Jesus either now or after death because of the gravity of Jesus' death-- that it being so so so so huge, that it is compelled to basically save everyone, [b]no matter their standing in the now, due to the blood of Jesus[/b].




If I may since this argument can turn sour in a heartbeat:

Rom. 5.1 Paul says this:
[b]"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"[/b] Romans 5:1 (KJV)

[b]Q.[/b] Why is peace possible? [b]A.[/b] Because of His shed Blood.

If it can be seen that Paul is NOT just speaking to the Romans and that He means it applied to the righteous everywhere regardless of the knowledge of Jesus Christ. With that approach to our understanding permitted we can state simply the justified are those who have faith in God and have lived with whatever light of Him made real to them. I trust this simple faith in God is sufficient for my Yak shepherd friend in Siberia who died never hearing of the kingdom of God from a missionary or passing evangelist. I believe it is.

Jesus came to redeem the righteous and turn sinners from their wicked ways. Will the wicked turn from their wicked ways without a fear of God? If there is no faith in a God sufficient to establish the hope of redemption and people live without such a hope or by some other false hope, how can they be saved? Who will be turned to God? Who can He then to turn to Jesus? Will Jesus find faith when He returns? May the redeemed say so; speak of Him from their lives by be being "broken bread and poured out wine".


"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? [b]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others[/b]"[/b] Luke 18:7-9 (KJV)

To whom is His shed Blood appied? The righteous everywhere; those who *live with the hope of redemption with a Godly testimony.

*live = keyword meaning to live out one's life in awe of God. He alone will be the judge of the heart of that individual.


[b]"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".[/b]

Rev. 20:12-13 (KJV)

Universalism? For the righteous everywhere? Yes.


:-)

 2006/10/9 8:31
Chariot
Member



Joined: 2006/1/12
Posts: 57


 Re: Universalism

Quote:
most Universalists do not take the Bible as inerrant, we must cover these if we are to cover Universalism



Quote:
dig down deep into why you believe God has appointed...



At the outset of this discussion were already presented with an epistemological crisis. The rug is being pulled from beneath our feet (i.e., how do you know the bible is inerrant?) while being asked to "dig down deep."

As one who was a former agnostic and a boarderline athiest - i cant help but think of that verse from 1 Corinthians 1:19, "For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent i will frustrate'" Honestly, i can't dig down deep without any recourse to the Bible.

It will be interesting to see how this topic proceeds. As one who was on the brink of total skepticism, and one who tried to dig deep without any sure foundation, i learned that in the innermost recessess of self, you could draw just about any conclusion or interpretation you wanted to. And to paraphrase another writer, "in the realm of knowledge, what your left with is dueling texts and interpretations" - Shaman verse Christian revelation, Biblically based doctrine verse nonbiblical doctrine.

In short, God must plant the revelation in your heart, from there we study Scripture and formulate sound doctrine.

keeping it friendly,
Rob

;-)

 2006/10/9 14:31Profile









 Re: Universalism

Quote:
Jesus came to redeem the righteous

Ormly,

Where does scripture say 'Jesus came to redeem the righteous'?

Quote:
To whom is His shed Blood appied? The righteous everywhere;

The way you've worded this, you are saying people are righteous BEFORE the Blood is applied to them.

Have I understood you correctly?

 2006/10/9 14:42









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Quote:
Jesus came to redeem the righteous

Ormly,

Where does scripture say 'Jesus came to redeem the righteous'?

Quote:
To whom is His shed Blood appied? The righteous everywhere;

The way you've worded this, you are saying people are righteous BEFORE the Blood is applied to them.

Have I understood you correctly?



If you read me properly you would have. Unfortunately you didn't.

 2006/10/9 16:17
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Universalism

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so [u]in Christ[/u] shall all be made alive.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/10/10 0:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die,


This is so because no righteousness from us can ever save us [b]to[/b] the presence of God. This is Adam's sin Paul is speaking of in his letter that only the Blood of Jesus could deal with.
Quote:
even so [u]in Christ[/u] shall all be made alive.



Now we get down to what Jesus did for those who not only lived with the hope of redemption but even more so for those prviledged to live in this time called the "Church age" having to do with the new birth experience and His indwelling life made a reality to those who hunger and thirst.

Quote:
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead



Indeed! And when resurrected many will not live with Him forever because of their wickedness and rebelliousness or otherwise rejection of God and His light given them from the beginning.

Quote:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.



A message to present day company of disciples [b]capable of hearing[/b] the revelation of Christ to understand it as Paul lived it.

More of that revealed truth to those who have ears to hear:

Quote:
2Co 5:16 [b]Wherefore[/b]henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2Co 5:17 [b]Therefore[/b] if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath [b]reconciled us to himself[/b] by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;



And of the righteous with the hope of God within them he says:

Quote:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



This should be us:

Quote:
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.



Quote:
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



Yes! [i]cf.[/i] John 17:20-23 (NASB-U)
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Quote:
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



And to whatever degree anyone everywhere, not just Israel, expressed[s] by their life to consist of believing in a God who sees all and is a rewarder of righteous works, is the degree to which they will be found in Him. Their acts of righteousness is the thing that will be judged either unto eternal life or eternal death.[gold, silver, hay, stuble] In this is God alone the revealer of the heart; the judge and rewarder and will be no respecter of persons in that day. [i]cf.[/i]Rev. 22.12

In this can be seen that evangelism ISN"T to be so much about the condition of the soul, though it is, but the ushering in of the kingdom of God and the making of disciples to it that the righteous soul can embrace that which he has hoped for and rejoices for its arrival to his understanding ---street preaching notwithsatnding.

Of course let it be clear that all this is my understanding. I don't believe I violate anyone elses.

Great selection of scripture, crsschk!

:-D :-D

 2006/10/10 8:35









 Re: Universalism

Quote:
If you read me properly you would have. Unfortunately you didn't.

Dear Ormly,

I have no idea what and how you believe your response has contributed to my understanding.

Sorry. Perhaps you didn't understand my questions?

I will reword them if required.

 2006/10/10 9:21
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:Reconcilling

Quote:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



This articulation has great meaning to me personally, had almost forgotten of it while drawing out all these references ... About a year and a half ago and have made mention of this elsewhere, but, had been doing some work around Los Angles, a very exhausting time, a world wind of activity. It was the first time meeting up with Greg (Who runs this site for everyone else) as well as another unseen brother who frequents here and is also a outdoor preacher to the homeless ...

But it was on the plane trip back, musing and thanking God for everything that had transpired, a great peace and a great ... depletion, a sense of being spiritually spent, a sweet joy and a great love .. just quiet, restful worship and prayer. Cannot say honestly that I 'hear' from the Lord in some of the more often expressed ways often, it is usually more of the 'impression' of things ... I digress. I asked the Lord; "Lord, what [i]is it[/i] that You are doing"? And by that meant not my personal circumstance but everywhere. And the return was as loud as it gets and the fastidiousness of response grabbed me; "I am reconciling the world unto Myself".

I was dumbfounded and just wept. Praise God.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/10/10 10:10Profile





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