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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Twice dead. That is, either meaning that they are seen to be dead in two successive seasons, showing that there is no hope that they will revive and be valuable; or, using the word twice to denote emphasis, meaning that they are absolutely or altogether dead. Perhaps the idea is, that successive summers and winters have passed over them, and that no signs of life appear. That is not loosing ones salvation.

This also has nothing to do with loosing our salvation: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second death is for those that have died and are resurrected after the millennium and are sent to the lake of fire and die twice along with Satan and all his own. The Jude scripture has all three meanings possible and not a improper relation to loosing our salvation by Christ being birthed in the believer and then being aborted by God and not making the Cross good enough for those that are saved.

Jude is not making the die twice the death of a Christ One that has sinned. Christ in you is the only hope of Glory and God is not going to give someone to Christ and then take him away.
John 6:40
This would be the evidence that we were given to God, and this would be evidence conclusive that we will be saved. If this explanation of the Saviour had always been attended to, the doctrine of election would not have been abused as it has been. Sinners would not sit down in unconcern, saying that if they are given to Christ all will be well. They would have arisen like the prodigal, and would have gone to God; and, having believed on the Saviour, they would then have had evidence that they were given to Him--the evidence resulting from an humble, penitent, believing heart--and then they might rejoice in the assurance that Jesus would lose none that were given to him, but would raise it up at the last day.

John 6:39 Should not have should in it.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me , that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day .

It SHOULD read for "I should loose" I will not destroy, die, lose, mar, perish. "nothing" should read exceedingly abundantly loose none. The other "should raise it" It is the same word as in John 6:40 "him" Autos; more literally: of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own,

You cannot get out of Gods Hands once you are in them, by Jesus Christ in us. We are not born again of our own seed.

Loosing ones salvation is the epitome of non belief and the lie of Satan, surely you will be your own god. If you can get out of God's hands He is not God and His Christ means nothing. Man can loose his own salvation but he cannot loose God's salvation by Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/10/4 0:46Profile









 Re: Once a Son, always a Son?

Phillip said:

Quote:
Loosing ones salvation is the epitome of non belief and the lie of Satan, surely you will be your own god. If you can get out of God's hands [b]He is not God and His Christ means nothing[/b].

We have to choose to stay in His hands. Just like He didn't stop Eve or Adam taking the fruit from which He had told them to abstain, He won't force us to stay in His grip.

I would back this with these verses:

Hebrews 10:26 - 29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20, 21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


I think there are also clues in John 10, if read with a clear mind.

John 10:26 - 30
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, [u]and they [b]follow me[/b][/u]: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one.


Note that the sheep remain sheep, even after they have been scattered.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose [b]own[/b] the sheep are [b]not[/b], [u]seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth[/u]: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.


Without doubt, sheep need a shepherd, but there is a definite word here from the Lord, that one of their attributes will be that they FOLLOW HIM.

 2006/10/4 9:20
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:


Dorcas,

Quote

Hebrews 10:26 - 29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20, 21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


I have always understood these verses directed primariy to the Jewish converts, the audience of the two books. When the Jewish converts return to Judaism, ( which probably indicates that their belief was not of faith to begin with , they were like 'switching' religions only) , they would then 'lose' their stance in Christ. ?!

mamaluk

 2006/10/4 9:28Profile
Zealot
Member



Joined: 2006/10/2
Posts: 12
Colorado

 Re:

Phillip,

Quote:
Twice dead. That is, either meaning that they are seen to be dead in two successive seasons


If someone is dead for spring and summer, they're still only dead once. They would have to be resurrected, then die again again to be considered twice dead.

Quote:
using the word twice to denote emphasis, meaning that they are absolutely or altogether dead


This is possible, but I believe unlikely. The way Hebrew writers would put an emphasis on a word is by repeating it. For example, the angels aren't stuttering when they say "Holy Holy Holy" but are shouting a resounding [u][i][b][size=large]HOLY![/size][/b][/i][/u] in awe of the continual magnificence of our God. In the same way, in Matthew 7:21 Jesus says, [i]"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."[/i]...these people aren't repeating themselves but crying out [i][b]Lord![/b][/i].

To go back to Jude, in v.5 it says "[i]Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.[/i]"
The NLT paraphrases it like this, "[i]...he later destroyed every one of those who did not [b]remain[/b] faithful.[/i]" (emphasis mine) Jesus continually said "[i]Those who endure to the end shall be saved.[/i]" (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13) That means that someone can decide to give up halfway through the race, thus [b]not[/b] finishing the race or claiming the prize of salvation. We must endure to the end to receive our salvation!

You must also understand the context of Jude...he is speaking about men who have crept into the church unnoticed who"[i]change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.[/i]"(Jude 4) Now if these men have crept in unnoticed, and yet are denying our Lord Jesus Christ, then obviously they're not denying Him so much with spoken word (something very noticable), but their actions and lifestyle!! And then they claim "grace" as their covering and thus "change the grace of our God into a license for immorality."

Peter goes on about these men, and [b]please read this carefully[/b]:
[i]If they have escaped the corruption of the world by [b]knowing[/b] our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them [b]not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.[/b][/i] (2 Peter 2:20-21 NIV).

Hebrews 10:26-29 hammers this home:
[i]If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?[/i]

Quote:
Loosing ones salvation is the epitome of non belief and the lie of Satan, surely you will be your own god. If you can get out of God's hands He is not God and His Christ means nothing.



Yes...losing one's salvation [b]is[/b] the epitome of unbelief...that the very reason you can lose it! :-)
But to go along that line of reasoning...God surely cannot be a sovereign God, since Adam "got out of God's hands" through his decision and choice to sin, which in turn seperated him from God.

You forget that our relationship with God is one of love, not of force. That's where free will comes in. God will never leave or forsake us...but we most assuredly can leave and forsake him. Because to choose love, one must be able to choose not to love. To be able to pursue intimacy with God, one must also be able to run in the opposite direction.

I say all of this with the utmost love and respect for you brother. Please forgive my directness...I tend to write like I preach.
God bless you.

Adam


_________________
Adam Ramsey

 2006/10/4 10:36Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

But you see Adam was not a birthed son of God, under the old testament and Law one lost his salvation by not being able to keep the law. The Law Himself is now birthed in us. Adam was only a created being given every opportunity to please God by every means that God gave then and they could not please God.

The only pleasing being to God is Christ Jesus the fulfillment of the Law and all else that pleases God. Jesus Christ is the one born again into a new race of people. If God in not the life of the believer, not born again person can loose the life of God, it is no longer his to loose. Its God's, bought and paid for by the pearl of Great price that will never die again.

Loosing ones salvation is the epitome of unbelief, loosing the perfect gift of God is the living in the unbelief that one can loose the Son of God birthed in him, taking away the peace of God that He gives, not as the world gives by keeping the law and making himself presentable to God for salvation and if not loosing it. Salvation is Christ in you the hope of glory, it is not our choice to receive it or loose it, it is the Father the planter of the Seed. Just like a child in the womb cannot tell the mom, I don't want to be born and if you give me birth, I am going to go back into the womb and not be born. I will loose my birth and there is nothing you can do about it.



In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/10/4 13:33Profile
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Joined: 2006/10/2
Posts: 12
Colorado

 Re:

Quote:
But you see Adam was not a birthed son of God, under the old testament and Law one lost his salvation by not being able to keep the law. The Law Himself is not birthed in us. Adam was only a created being given every opportunity to please God by every means that God gave then and they could not please God.



Adam was the first Son of God, he was the original man! Adam was the one God created so he could [i]walk with Him.[/i] Just because Adam was Old Testament, it doesn't rule out the fact that he was a human being who God created, and yet still had the ability and freedom to choose the way of Satan over the way of God when he was in the garden.

But if you want New Testament (besides all the other scriptures given), then Paul says to Timothy,
"[i]...fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have [b]shipwrecked[/b] their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.[/i]" (1 Timothy 1:18-20 NIV, emphasis mine)

In all humility, you are throwing around some nice sentiments and allegories...which however are unbiblical and untrue. The Scripture must be our final authority...

In regards to your example of giving birth, please read the original post on this thread, which I think pretty sufficiently covers that...


_________________
Adam Ramsey

 2006/10/4 14:23Profile









 Re: Once a Son, always a Son?

mamaluk said

Quote:
I have always understood these verses directed primariy to the Jewish converts, the audience of the two books.

I realise the writer to the Hebrews and Peter have both made a similar point, but I believe [i]all[/i] (2 Timothy 3:16) scripture is relevant to believers, regardless of their ethnic orgin. (I speak for myself and not for any school of thought. I read the New Testament as if it is directed at me personally, because in Christ, there [u]is no Jew, no Greek[/u]... is there? That's fact, isn't it?)

Also, [i][b]without[/i][/b] disputing the promises in the Old Testament which appear to be made to truly ethnic Jews, there is no doubt that Gentile believers are grafted into Christ, just as Jewish believers must be (John 15, Rom 11 - Christ is the Vine; Christ is the True olive tree.) They are not more 'in Christ' because of the common natural ethnicity, because when Jesus died, He crucified Jewish flesh as much as He crucified Gentile flesh.

(1 Cor 1:31
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Ephesians 2:9
'...lest any man should boast.'

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] [b]the [u]adoption[/u][/b])

Quote:
When the Jewish converts return to Judaism, ( which probably indicates that their belief was not of faith to begin with , they were like 'switching' religions only) , they would then 'lose' their stance in Christ. ?!

No-one whose belief is not of faith, has been [u]in Christ[/u], surely?

I really do think what you've expressed in the second part of your thesis, is more a play on words, than a realistic explanation of those verses from Hebrews. And, the Judaism which is practised now, differs in many ways from that which was given to Moses.


Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build [u]my church[/u]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

mamaluk,

Since Peter had that vision recorded in Acts, just before he went to Cornelius' house, I've assumed that anything he wrote (even though it was to encourage the Jewish Christians who'd been scattered), was just as important for me to grasp, seeing he'd spent three years with Jesus and was given a very specific task to perform for the [i][b]whole[/i][/b] Church.

Further, about Hebrews, seeing I'm a Gentile, I've found it extremely instructive to understand - indispensible, even - to my understanding of God's rationale in sending Jesus and how He fulfilled the Old Covenant as well as bringing in a New Covenant. I'm not sure how much sense any Gentile could make of the crucifixion, without Hebrews to help them along; but again, I speak for myself in this.

 2006/10/4 15:00
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:



Quote:
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.



i just want to make sure that we all know that paul is speaking of works, not practicing sins.


_________________
Lisa

 2006/10/4 17:09Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re: A good plumbline

Election means that God has foreordained that the elect will be saved. They can never perish… they will persevere. That’s all. I'd just like to see somebody submit to the teaching of scripture.


1 John 3:6 “Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.”

John 3:16 “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life;”

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[a] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”

John 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

John 10:28-29 “28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

Eph 1:13, 14 “having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

1 Peter 1:4, 5 “4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Phil 1:6 “6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;”

Romans 6:14 “14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”

Phil 2:13 “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

1 John 2:19 “19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”

Romans 8:38-39 “38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”


-------------------------------------------
Jesus says that whosoever believes on the Son shall never perish.” But the Arminian says, “Wait and see. Maybe he will go to hell.”



Quote:
Jude 12 talks about men "who are spots on your love feasts"...who are "twice dead."



the context says...

Quote:
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.



These people in context have the blackness of darkness reserved forever. How can you have heaven and hell in store for you? These people are apostates and apostates are lost heathen. These people never lost salvation, they never had it. Does God keep erasing our names and adding them to the book of life?

¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
---------------------------------------------------------
Understanding those verses Lazarus1719 wrote as evidence contracting the scriptures.

Lazarus1719 wrote:

*turn from his righteous ways, commit iniquity, and die (Ezekiel 18:24, 26)
Romans 3:10-12 “ There is none righteous, no, not one;”
If that man was made righteous in Christ he would have lived. Because He died we can safely say he was never saved.

*fall away (Mt 11:6;
“And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.” Why would they be blessed? Would He say they we’re blessed if they were condemned the more they listen? He is saying blessed are those who are saved which will not be offended because of Him. Who will not deny Christ.
…Mk 14:27,29) Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
Mk 14:27-29 “27 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: ‘ I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered.’ 28 “But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” 29 Peter said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble, yet I will not be.” “
Jesus is talking about how Peter will deny Christ not fall away. If Peter had fallen away we’d know.

*wander away (Mt 18:12,13)
The parable of the lost sheep is of a believer who wandered from the flock (sinned) but was returned (repentance). He was still a believer when he wandered.

*turn away from the faith (Mt 24:10)
In context Matthew 24:10-13
“At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Who will be saved? Those who endure until the end.

*stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk 8:13)
In context Luke 8:13 says
“Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.” The only soil speaking of those who are saved is the one who bore fruit on the good ground.

*cut in two and assigned a portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46)
He is assigned a portion with the unbelievers because he is lost.

*lose your saltiness and be thrown out (Lk 14:34,35)
In context this speaks of counting the cost of following Christ. The very verse before says “33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.” This is talking about the cost of following Christ. If you have no saltiness you are good for nothing (lost).

*turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn 6:66)
CONTEXT!!!
John 6:64-66
“Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. “

*be a branch that is cast out as withered, and thrown in the fire and burned (Jn 15:6)
The Context…
John 15:4-8 “4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.” Showing yourselves to be my disciples!!!!!

*go astray (Jn 16:1)
In context this speaks of persecution. Just like in Peter’s denial Christ is speaking of denying Him.

*cease to continue in His goodness, and be cut off (Rom 11:22)
Here Paul is speaking of the Jews. In context Paul is speaking about the gentiles who are grafted into the church. The Jews who rejected Christ we’re rejected by Christ. They had never believed.

*be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)
Verse 26: “Run in such a way as to get the prize.” Paul is speaks about “strict training” or holiness in verses 25. Paul says they should pursue holiness… because if you’re not sanctified you’re not saved.
Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”

*Leave egypt, be baptized, eat and drink of Christ, and yet have God get angry and scatter your body in the wilderness (entire chapter of 1 Cor 10)
1 Cor 10:13 “And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”

*believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2)
He’s talking about believing that Christ rose from the dead. Besides he says “IF YOU HOLD FAST”

*fall away from grace (Gal 5:4)
Those who try to be justified by the law cannot be saved by the law and have fallen from the grace of God.

*cease to continue in the faith, move away from the hope of the Gospel, and not be presented holy, blameless, and above reproach in His sight (Col. 1:23)
Here he is saying if you continue in the faith you will be presented holy and blameless.

*be part of the falling away (2 Thes 2:3)
Here Paul is referring to the very act of ultimate apostasy which reveals the final antichrist.

*wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim 1:5,6)
He’s talking about turning aside to other doctrine- not the faith, to become a false teacher and apostate.

*have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19)
In context, 1 Tim 1:19-20 “18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.” He’s talking about people who have rejected the faith and never had it. Why would they need to learn not to blaspheme?
1 Cor 5:2-5 “And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
He is speaking of church discipline, Matthew 18.

*be puffed up with pride and suffer the same condemnation as the devil (1 Tim 3:6)
This is talking about the qualifications of an elder: they must be saved.

*have condemnation because they cast off their first faith (1 Tim 5:12)
*turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15)
He’s talking about widows who live in sin.
1 John 3:4-9 “4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.”
But we know that whoever lives in sin has never known Christ.

*depart from the faith (1 Tim 4:1)
Yes, a lot of people reject Christ to follow heretical doctrines. Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*wander away from the faith (1 Tim 6:10,21)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim 2:18)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim 4:4)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.

*drift away (Heb 2:1)
Yes, we should persevere by God’s power.

*acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb 3:12)
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

*come short of entering His rest (Heb 4:1)
In context the bible says Heb 4:1-2 “Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it” emphasis added.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”


*fall according to disobedience (Hewb 4:11)
Doesn’t mean that they were once saved.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

*fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Heb 6:6)
In other words you can’t crucify Christ twice. If you reject Christ He may reject you.
After this verse Hebrews goes on to say that if you do not produce fruit you’ll be burned. If you don’t produce fruit its because you are lost.

*sin wilfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, and there be no sacrifice for sins left, and we come under a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the advesaries of God (Heb 10:26-27)
Context!!!!!
”19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.” This is clearly talking about professing Christians.
2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

*fall short of the grace of God, and many become defiled from it (Heb 12:15)
“14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.” This never says that Esau was saved and lost his salvation… If you fall short of the grace of God it’s because you are lost and were always lost. He’s talking about pursuing holiness, and you can’t have holiness apart from God’s grace.

*turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb 12:25)
Who has refused and turned away from Christ? Lost people. This never says that saved people lose their salvation.

*be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb 13:9)
This is just a warning against false teachings.

*be judged (Jam 5:9)
“9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[c] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! 10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.”
He is speaking of the perseverance of the saints.

*wander from the truth, and need his soul saved from death (Jam 5:19)
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[f] from death and cover a multitude of sins. This says that the erring one was saved from death meaning He was lost.

*stuumble [from your calling and election] (2 Pet 1:10)
Verses 10 -11: “10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” In context He is talking about growth and assurance not “loosing your election”

*leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet 2:15)
“14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds[b] carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.” These people were lost and never saved. They were apostate.

*again be entangled in [the pollutions of the world], and the end result is so bad that it would be better for you to never have known the way of righteousness, than to turn from it (2 Peter 2:20-21)
“21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” He says it would have been better for them to have never KNOWN THE WAY of righteousness. He never says they were righteous or saved.

*be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet 3:17)
He’s telling them to keep from error, not damnation.

*have their lampstand removed from its place (Rev 2:5)
He’s telling them to repent from their lack of love. If they are lost, then they are damned if they are saved then they won’t be.
“To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
Luke 13:3 “Unless you repent you will all likewise perish”

not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:10,11)
He is talking about suffering persecution and martyrdom, if they don’t remain faithful its because they were lost. Their profession was invalid.

*have their name blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5)
This never says that you can be blotted out of the book of life. It says "I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life"

become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev 3:15,16)
It doesn’t say that this church was saved it says they were lost, miserable and naked.

*have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev 22:19) .
*have their part from the Book of Life, the holy city, and the things written in the book taken away (Rev 22:18)
18 For[i] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[j] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[k] his part from the Book[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. First off, if somebody does this they are lost. Its not like they were saved. This is probably one of those sins where you can never find salvation after committing. But according to the bible if they don’t find salvation it was because it was never theirs to have.

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Conclusion, in these list of verses I have yet to find a single verse supporting the claim that those kept by the power of God can LOSE SALVATION. In all reality, if you are kept by God’s power you will be saved. Plus, nobody has accounted for the verses that I have brought up. We should not come to scripture with BIAS.

Jesus says that whosoever believes on the Son shall never perish.” But the Arminian says, “Wait and see. Maybe he will go to hell.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/10/4 17:12Profile









 Re: Once a Son, always a Son?

Quote:
i just want to make sure that we all know that paul is speaking of works, not practicing sins.

Thanks. This is good point, as I've also heard (on SI), these words interpreted alternatively still, to something about rewards.

 2006/10/4 17:16





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