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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once a Son, Always a Son?

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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991


you are right in many ways lazarus, an older saint told me when i mentioned things like this, he said in acts 14:22 that it is thru much suffering that we enter into the kingdom of god, and that the paralell of the sower shows many are going to fall away, and as for when many went away, in matthew there were 5000 eating food from christ right? how many was then the many that went away? probably very many people...

but this old man told me, son there is a time to be harch and rebuke people, but most of the time we have to encurage them in love, every time all the time, ii was all exited and like LOOK LOOK THEY ARE ALL GOING TO HELL! and maybe that is so, but he told me its hard to go about people like that if they dont know you love them, and to say that to someone else who is not quite there or have fallen away and is living in sin, sometimes they may need conviction, sometimes encuragement and that is why we need maturity, i know i will always almost do the wrong thing, when encuragement is needed i will rebuke, and the other way around, im now trying to be more still and whit a LOVING tone in a LOVING way show people to scripture, and encurage them to read there bible and pray, and come to meetings, i can do that and maybe they will by gods grace come around and turn around, and after some years maturing i can know by my experience when i should be harcher and rebuke people and be hard on them, but still, we can NEVER change someone else.... no not one single person, not truly anyway...only god can, so dont forget his involment in this, and may god walk whit you in your ministry lazarus, more people need to do what you do.

gods peace and guidence to you


 2006/10/1 23:50Profile

Joined: 2006/4/4
Posts: 60
Tulsa, Oklahoma


letsgetbusy wrote:

But rather, the Scripture says things like, hold fast, endure, keep the faith, etc, etc.

I believe, when scripture is speaking about these things, it is referring to our rewards, not to salvation.

2. John 8: "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward".

And in 1. Cor. 3 Paul tells us about the foundation we should build on, and the work we do.

1. Cor. 3:14 "If any man´s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man´s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved: yet so as by fire".

Just a thought.

be blessed

Beate Masslock

 2006/10/2 2:49Profile

Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida


A bit of my other post:
Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" IT IS CHRIST WHO BEGAN.

Phil 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." IT IS GOD WHO WORKS.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." All who have ever fallen away(permanently) were never saved in the first place.

******If you are TRULY saved(justified) you will continue being saved(sanctified) and will finally be saved(glorified).

1 John Cpts 2 & 3

"3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"4 Whoever commits(pratices) sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

God hates sin and somebody who loves sin consequently hates God and is lost. If you are saved you will strive to be holy.

1 Peter 1:16
"because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”"

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Its not that by your works you are saved but if you are saved you have works! Otherwise you have a dead faith!

James 2:20
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

"Once saved always saved" This phrase is devastating to people who twist things to thier own destruction. The question really is...

2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

2 Peter 1:10
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble"


Repent, believe, have faith in God, trust Christ's sacrifice, be "Born Again" (or regenerated), follow Christ, obey God, love God, know God, seek God, fear God all the days of your life. Do all these things with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Salvation is by Grace, through faith, in Christ Alone. Be converted! (Provided by God)
John 10:29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 1:13-14

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." -Martin Luther


 2006/10/2 9:25Profile

Joined: 2006/10/2
Posts: 12


It is very possible for a true Christian to:

I just want to add one more very powerful scripture to that list of Scriptures Jesse gave...

Jude 12 talks about men "who are spots on your love feasts"...who are "twice dead."

Now the only way someone can be 'twice dead' that they were dead once, made alive through Christ, and now they're dead again.

I understand where the OSAS people are coming from...its just a matter of perspective:

The Arminian views things from a human standpoint. We do not know if one of our own (who we believe is saved) will depart from our Lord and "receive the grace of God in vain" (Heb 12:15). And if that person denies their Lord and walks away from Him, and then is hit by a truck: he is going to hell. And although He was once "saved"...he now is not. He walked away from God.

Yet, the Calvinist views things from an eternal standpoint. He is looking from the outside of 'time', in. Since that man who was hit by the truck never actually [i]received[/i] his salvation and was not 'saved' eternity's eyes, he technically never was saved because when the actual time of 'saving' came...he wasn't.

Forgive my fumbling with words, this truly is a hard topic to explain. Where the OSAS people have gone off track though, is that someone comes down the front of church, says a superstitious , formula prayer that is supposed to grant salvation, and then they go off and live like the world and bear no fruit, yet claim salvation through the grace of God.

God bless you all. Endure to the end, so that you may receive the gift of salvation.


Adam Ramsey

 2006/10/2 10:29Profile

 Re: Once a son, always a son?

I haven't read this thread in detail.

My perspective is that unless a person ('believer') [i]keeps[/i] (guards their) 'believing' and 'walking in the light' (1 John 1:7) and [i]keeps[/i] (guards their) 'living' and 'walking in the Spirit', they have the potential to revert to being 'children of disobedience' (on whom the wrath of God may fall eventually. I was thinking today of what Jesus said here:

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I think the mention of one's soul being destroyed brings in the matter of what it is we think is 'saved' through faith. We know our bodies are to be changed.... but our souls are the prize, from God's perspective. This is what He is hoping for.... our very souls to be [i]HIS[/i]. Unless the spiritual part of our life stays right, it appears our souls can be lost through lack of keeping them.

This touches on the several places in the New Testament, where we are exhorted to 'keep yourselves'. In other words, God has [i]not[/i] undertaken to do things for us, which He deems we can do for ourselves. Now, this may vary from person to person, which is why both Peter and Paul exhort [b]us[/b] in different ways, to make [u]sure[/u] of our relationship with and in God.

But the scripture I wanted to bring to your discussion is this:

Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth [u]again until Christ be formed[/u] in you,

If Paul is in labour 'again', doesn't that suggest it is possible for the potential fruit of new birth to be lost - perhaps through lack of abiding in the Vine....? (John 15 - where unfruitful branches are cut off and burned).

Enough unfruitful seasons, and the branch may be cut off - at least, is in danger of this according to Paul, also (Rom 11).

No-one is suggesting, I don't think, that this is God's [i]desire[/i]. I'd say the reverse is His desire (2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.)

But, perhaps the person who doesn't realise there is this possibility, is in danger of a false sense of security.... and may not understand that repentance has to be an ongoing [i]attitude[/i] - for the renewing of one's mind and the effect of 'eating the word' (building one's house on the Rock (Luke 6:48)) to be established in one's life.

 2006/10/2 11:48

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


[color=0000ff]Prov. 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

Prov. 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length.[/color]

Just a couple of verses that have challenged me from time to time.

Ron Bailey

 2006/10/2 12:37Profile


I just tell people, "Don't sin and don't leave Jesus and you won't have to worry about it."

 2006/10/2 14:49

Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 A good plumbline


Lazarus1719 wrote:

*turn from his righteous ways, commit iniquity, and die (Ezekiel 18:24, 26)
*fall away (Mt 11:6; Mk 14:27,29)
*wander away (Mt 18:12,13)
*turn away from the faith (Mt 24:10)
*stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk 8:13)
*cut in two and assigned a portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46)
*lose your saltiness and be thrown out (Lk 14:34,35)
*turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn 6:66)
*be a branch that is cast out as withered, and thrown in the fire and burned (Jn 15:6)
*go astray (Jn 16:1)
*cease to continue in His goodness, and be cut off (Rom 11:22)
*be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)
*Leave egypt, be baptized, eat and drink of Christ, and yet have God get angry and scatter your body in the wilderness (entire chapter of 1 Cor 10)
*believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2)
*fall away from grace (Gal 5:4)
*cease to continue in the faith, move away from the hope of the Gospel, and not be presented holy, blameless, and above reproach in His sight (Col. 1:23)
*be part of the falling away (2 Thes 2:3)
*wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim 1:5,6)
*have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19)
*be puffed up with pride and suffer the same condemnation as the devil (1 Tim 3:6)
*have condemnation because they cast off their first faith (1 Tim 5:12)
*turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15)
*depart from the faith (1 Tim 4:1)
*wander away from the faith (1 Tim 6:10,21)
*wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim 2:18)
*turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim 4:4)
*drift away (Heb 2:1)
*acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb 3:12)
*come short of entering His rest (Heb 4:1)
*fall according to disobedience (Hewb 4:11)
*fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Heb 6:6)
*sin wilfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, and there be no sacrifice for sins left, and we come under a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the advesaries of God (Heb 10:26-27)
*fall short of the grace of God, and many become defiled from it (Heb 12:15)
*turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb 12:25)
*be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb 13:9)
be judged (Jam 5:9)
*wander from the truth, and need his soul saved from death (Jam 5:19)
*stuumble [from your calling and election] (2 Pet 1:10)
*leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet 2:15)
*again be entangled in [the pollutions of the world], and the end result is so bad that it would be better for you to never have known the way of righteousness, than to turn from it (2 Peter 2:20-21)
*be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet 3:17)
*have their lampstand removed from its place (Rev 2:5)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:10,11)
*have their name blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev 3:15,16)
*have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev 22:19)
*have their part from the Book of Life, the holy city, and the things written in the book taken away (Rev 22:18)

This is good, I am going to print it out and put it in my prayer book, good searching scriptures.

Zeke Oosthuis

 2006/10/2 15:11Profile

Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130

 Re: A good plumbline

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

doesnt this speak of the possibility to waste your life in the flesh and yet be saved?
I'm just wondering.
What do you think about that?


Daniel Sahm

 2006/10/2 17:12Profile

Joined: 2006/4/4
Posts: 60
Tulsa, Oklahoma


Hi daniel,

this is exactly what I wrote in my post. I´m thinking the same!

God bless

Beate Masslock

 2006/10/3 4:09Profile

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