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MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Quote:
I think this brother is rigth on with this statement, right now america is one of the poorest nations in the world per person, yes you heard me right. The average american is so far in debt something like $20-40,000. America is living on borrowed time, its mostly a facade.

I am sorry to have to do this, and I don't want to cut across you, but I can't let you get away with this statement. The USA is the richest country in the world, if not per capita (3rd or 7th) at least in total. It is actually a struggle to find decent summarised information, most of it is too detailed. But let me give you a few quotes:
- A Valley Forge Christian College (?) lecturer I heard speak this millennium, stated that the USA has 5% of the world's population, but has 25% of the world's GDP (basically income).
- Operation World in 2000 (by Operation Mobilisation) records that the average annual income per capita in the US is $31,000. In Nigeria with a population of over 100 million, it is $280/year!
-I know a 'bishop' of a small group of churches in Nigeria; his pastor's were paid about $20/month.
- This website([url=http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp]Global Issues[/url]) shows that half the world's population live on less than $2 per day. (I don't know this organisation or its politics, so if you feel it is inappropriate for this website please feel free to remove the link)
One could go on and on. This is not to deny that there are a lot of Americans who live in poverty, but how many live on $70/month.

The debt issue for the US at both a country and personal level is not a problem. I am no economist, but the prefailing view is that economic growth will deal with the debt that is building up. Look around the world at where debt relieve is discussed, it is not for the USA.

Why is this important?
- Anyone, including myself, living in the developed or western world, needs to recognise there are billions of people, that compared to us have nothing. If we ignore their needs, it is a shame to us.
- Of the Christian countries in the world, and the US is a Christian country (check Operation World statistics if you have doubts - Evangelical Christians USA-32.5%, UK(my home country)-8.5%, Germany(where I currently live)-2.9%), the US is is the most able financially to have the greatest impact on world missions. I once did some calculations, which showed that without undermiining ministry at home, the US church could support 4 million missionaries (that number includes spouses and children). There are currently (2000) only 60,200 ! The Mormons manage to send nearly 200,000 missionaries!! So if you start saying that the US is a poor country, then it is a short step, to being satisfied with the status quo. The US could be a much greater missionary base, if the church recognised how rich, financially, it is.

This post is not meant to be a political nor a criticism of the US (I have there for a few years and think it is a great country), and I apologize that it is off-topic, but it is an important issue to get right.

Blessings,

Mike

 2006/9/30 4:24Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Isaiah was a prophet and many of the things he spoke of did not come to pass during his life.

In terms of financial systems, maybe all the aspects for financial ruin have been put in place. The system has been established. The handwriting is on the wall.

The free market systems that we hear about in the news and from schools is a lie. There are central banks and the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland that are manipulating markets all over the world trying to prevent collapse of the paper money sytem.

A major hedge fund in natural gas just lost 4-6 billion in one or two weeks. This was made public at the beginning of the week. Who bailed them out? Have you heard of this situation?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/9/30 8:02Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: David Wilkerson

Wilkerson -- crediable? I like what Jesus said to the angry mod when they wanted to stone Him, for which of these good works do you (or will you ) stone me for? Look at Wilkerson's ministry, teen challenge alone worldwide is noteable and it's easy to see the hand of God all over that. Than the jews said for none of these but because you said.......I supose the hearers of Jesus misunderstood what He said and doubted Him too, in the same way I believe Wilkerson , his words especially are scrutinzed but his de-tractors always get around eventually to slamming his character which usually indicates both jealousy and envy on behalf of his enemies. Unless the prophetic statement is blantant, or presumptious, like many we've heard over the years, I supose it not worth worring about :-(


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D.Miller

 2006/9/30 8:40Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Mike,


These statistics are real fancy for someone just reading them. but go to those countries, and see how much it costs for a soda, or a meal. Look and see how much it costs. My friend just went to guatemala this past week. She spent less than a dollar on a shirt and a vase, which would cost lots of money out here in America.

It costs the average person here in Northern VA and average 500,000 to buy a decent home, as compare to somewhere like pennsylvania, where it costs about 115,000. See the difference, but people usually get paid more in VA than they do in pennsylvania.

See where I am going with this...If not, sorry, I just kind of woke up.


Basically what I am saying, is that Sermonindex is right.


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/9/30 9:47Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Quote:
A major hedge fund in natural gas just lost 4-6 billion in one or two weeks. This was made public at the beginning of the week. Who bailed them out? Have you heard of this situation?


Yes, Amaranth. No-one bailed them out, the investors lost money; hedge funds don't have the FDIC or SIPC. In the global scheme of things the event is immaterial! I find Revelation 18 is sobering reading when considering these things. But I am off-topic so won't add any more.

Mike

 2006/9/30 10:05Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Quote:
Basically what I am saying, is that Sermonindex is right.

Sermonindex said: "right now america is one of the poorest nations in the world per person"



I understand that people face different costs depending on where they live. This [url=http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdf]page from the World Bank[/url] gives Purchasing Power Parity comparisions. That is, it tries to show how much the average income for a person in each country will buy where the person lives. The income still gets very small for a lot of countries.

All I can do, is, respectfully, to ask you to take the quote above and review the web sites of any missions organisation, relief fund, development agency etc that works in some of these countries , or discuss it directly with them. See if they think the USA is "one of the poorest nations in the world per person". I would be interested to know what you find out.

Mike

 2006/9/30 10:25Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

I think we ought get back to topic. I see how it relates, but we've stretched it a little far in my opinion. If we want to discuss the financial situation of the United States, let's do it somewhere else. Obviously, if the mods wish to keep it here, we will ;-)


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Denver McDaniel

 2006/9/30 10:35Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

boomatt wrote:
These statistics are real fancy for someone just reading them. but go to those countries, and see how much it costs for a soda, or a meal. Look and see how much it costs. My friend just went to guatemala this past week. She spent less than a dollar on a shirt and a vase, which would cost lots of money out here in America.

It costs the average person here in Northern VA and average 500,000 to buy a decent home, as compare to somewhere like pennsylvania, where it costs about 115,000. See the difference, but people usually get paid more in VA than they do in pennsylvania.



Umm, sorry but people in those countries die from starvation, disease and numerous other illnesses that we don't. They can't even afford their 'cheap' prices, cause to them a coke,[b] is a day's maybe even a week's worth of working. [/b] They are poor and even with their cheap prices, it just shows, since they can't pay it, that they are extremly poor.

That just mean's giving overseas has greater impact. That doesn't mean that the other country's are wealthy.

Our dollar is worth more than their dollar, and our are easier to get than theirs.

I did a study on 3rd world countries and he is very correct when it comes to his stats.(So, I agree with Mike there)

BUT, we are on borrowed money. From what I heard. So, if for some reason, certain nations would like to ask for their money back, we'd be extremely poor. Our dollar would go straight down. And we'd be like the next Africa.

Yes, we(USA) are the 'richest' but in all truth we are the poorest. Why? because us (USA) being rich is a mask, we really owe the money that we have and then much more.

So, basically for now, it looks like we are 'rich' but then when we stop losing favor with the nations we owe. Watch out, babylon is gonna fall.

Also, this economic 'rise' or 'highest ever' is just like David Wilkerson said. Paraphrase "The economy of America will see rises (even record breaking rises) but it is only the beginning of the huge decifit and it's a mask"

When I watched the news the other day and they say 'this is the highest ever' I couldn't help but remember Brother Wilkerson's prophesy.

The end is nigh and brother's and sister's lets get ready for it and fill up our oil jars.

 2006/9/30 11:59Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

LoveGrace,

I stand corrected, after reading those pages that MikeH had linked to his post. God Bless


Thanks guys and have a great day


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Matt Kroelinger

 2006/9/30 12:05Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
it seems to me the economy is driven by one big thing, debt. i figure 9 out of every 10 dollars which is spent out there is not backed by anything due to the fractional reserve lending principle. this allows banks to lend out 10 times more money than they have in reserve. at some point all that money is going to have to come from somewhere and if it doesn't, i don't think the consequences would be good. we may say america is the richest nation, but we do carry the greatest debt load. the average american owes over $8,000 in credit card debt this is not factoring in morgages, car loans, education loans etc. i don't think we're rich, i just think we owe a lot of people money and at some point it all is going to backfire.

i received a word from the Lord concerning this economic collapse and i heard it would be next year. incidentally this concern has been raised on fox news (of all places) and other networks during this past year. i'm no economist so i don't know the mechanics of it but as i heard it from our Lord it will be like the great depression, only greater because we have that much more to lose and are so used to a certain way of life such that when people lose jobs, homes, property etc, it will ge very ugly very quickly. as for those preachers who preach prosperity, unless they repent some of them will be faced with some very angry churchgoers...our Lord will soon have me post that word and some others here soon. in truth i look forward to it because this will knock down our idol of materialism and cause as many as would to repent so that God can bind us together in Him as it was at the first because what we're doing now is not cutting it.

MARANATHA!

the bottom line is we ought to seek our Lord all the more desparately not because


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/9/30 22:08Profile





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