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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
For example, when people wail and bark like dogs, do you hear the pastors denouncing that? NO.



Yes.

I have a Brownsville video where Steve Hill actually stops a sermon to have a man escorted out of the sanctuary for laughing in the spirit. It was very no-nonsense - like a Ravenhill rebuke. Hill understood the centrality of the Word of God. I have been blessed by [i]many[/i] Brownsville messages, and agree with Bartle and Melissa: Brownsville AG [i]was[/i] a move of God during its heyday. Of course, there were some strange cut-ups, but you have to remember that pastors and evangelists are but mere men...and can get it wrong at times. The Dutch Reformer Andrew Murray once tried to hinder any outbursts of joy or emotions during his meetings, thinking they "weren't of God" until he was gently rebuked by a precious elderly woman who had come from an outpouring across the seas and told him that the same manifestations were happening elsewhere where the Spirit of God was brooding. Murray then gave up the reins, and let God move freely. As result, there was a mighty move of God in his region. Many souls repented and came to Jesus Christ.

My point is, I agree that we need to test the spirits, but alas, we can also get hung up on the other end of the spectrum and hamper God as well. But to say that the Brownsville leaders never denounced or regulated bizarre outbursts is not entirely true.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/9/27 23:06Profile









 pride, Boomatt

pride.

I wasn't even really talking about the Brownsville Assembly of God, I was chastisng you for slandering Dr. Michael Brown, which is wrong.

and you had nothing to say about that.

ok.

let me ask you this: Was the revival that came to the Hebrides Islands in Scotland, 1949-53, false? was it of God?....was it of the devil?

many at the time said it was false, many said the revival that came to Wales, 1904 was false. preacher upon preacher denounced Evan Roberts, fore he was a 26 year old Welsh coal miner, who was he? many said he was of the devil, many said he was just exploiting "emotionalism" among the lost.

was the revival in Los Angeles 1906-07 false? Secular newspapers made great sport of it in the press, along with Phoebe Palmer and eventually Parham said this revival was of the devil. was this revival false? Out of this revival was born the Assemblies of God and the Church of God in Christ, are these denominations "false"? are the saints who worship at these churches "decieved"?

was the revival in Pyongyang in 1907 false? many many preachers lined up and proclaimed this a work of the devil. was the revival in the Shantung province in China in 1927 ,false? and railed against John Sung, and Andrew Gih, calling them instruments of the devil.


I have no idea who this Rodney Browne is, nor should you fret and worry about who is decieved, instead you should engage on working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, instead of slandering a man of God like Dr. Michael Brown on a public forum without you YOURSELF refuting point by point HOW he is "decieving" believers.

who are you to say what revival is false, and what is of God?

be careful of religious pride, we see evidence of it everyday on the TV with countless suicide bombers engaging in the work of the devil by murdering thousands of innocents in the name of "god".

religious pride, watch out bud, it'll get you if you're not careful.

firmly, bartle

 2006/9/28 19:13
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re: pride, Boomatt

Quote:
I wasn't even really talking about the Brownsville Assembly of God, I was chastisng you for slandering Dr. Michael Brown, which is wrong.



If you go back and READ my original post. I said to be careful of him because HE SUPPORTS THE FALSE PENSACOLA OUTPOURING!!! not his school, or him in particular, just to be careful.



Quote:
let me ask you this: Was the revival that came to the Hebrides Islands in Scotland, 1949-53, false? was it of God?....was it of the devil?




Quote:
was the revival in Pyongyang in 1907 false? many many preachers lined up and proclaimed this a work of the devil. was the revival in the Shantung province in China in 1927 ,false? and railed against John Sung, and Andrew Gih, calling them instruments of the devil.



I have no idea if they were or not, praise god if they were, but I really don't entirely know, because I obviously wasn't there, and neither were you, so everything that is being said about that is pure SPECULATION.



Quote:
who are you to say what revival is false, and what is of God?



good point, we are suppose to line it up with the word, and if it is contradicting, then it is obviously a fake revival...




Quote:
nor should you fret and worry about who is decieved,



I would really like to respond to this one. Are you serious, brother, I love you enough to tell you, and all of the other christians out there to seek the word, find out if it is false, you will be suprised when you do. But dont tell me not to fret and worry about people who are deceived, If I see a brother deceived, you bet I will be on my hands and knees praying to god to deliver them.

Quote:
religious pride, watch out bud, it'll get you if you're not careful.




I take offense to that! Why would you say such a thing? Back it up... Please, I want to know how I am being religiously prideful.

Here is a link for Rodney Howard Brown, take a look and read some of the articles, well documented...

Very close relationship with the brownsville movement, and the pastors.

Link: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/howard-browne.html

I pray you get something out of this.. I would like to dialogue with you more about this by PM if possible.

God Bless

Matt


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/9/28 21:36Profile









 Matt, thats my point exactly....

you wrote in response to when I asked you about various revivals and moves of God:

Quote:
I have no idea if they were or not, praise god if they were, but I really don't entirely know, because I obviously wasn't there, and neither were you, so everything that is being said about that is pure SPECULATION



No, it's not "speculation", it's called testimony, it's called "witness"...a "witness" recounts what he or she felt and saw, in their hearts and in
their spirit, and if you would make a careful study of past revival's or moves of God, there are two common denominators, one is a spontenaeous (spelling!) awareness of the fear of God in a community and the response of this community to that sudden Divine Awareness, which is repentance and a turning BACK to God. The other common denominator is the that there are many detractors who declare this move of God, counterfeit.

When God moves, and fills a community, people will wig, when God sent fire down to consume the offerings, and the dust and water that Elijah had poured out, what did the people do?

They fell on their faces, crying.

When Peter spoke the first great evangelistic sermon of the Church, what did people do, they were cut to the quick and cried out, "what must we do to be saved"?...and believe me, that first altar call wasn't a calm and sedate affair, can't you see it? 3,000 people getting saved under enormous guilt and shame and conviction. Don't tell me they weren't getting emotional.

But their were those there, that were probably deriding this first New Covenant revival. I know it, coz they look what they did to Stephen.

So I would suggest a careful study of revival, and this would reveal the Heavenly Architecure of revival.

I said that to say this, when you say, "be careful" of man, the implication is that he is not carefully and Scripturally discharging his duties as a minister of the New Covenant, and thats slander, and thats where I take umbrage with you, coz I'm telling you, personally that many times I have listened to a message that Michael Brown gave at Brownsville entitled "Holy Desperation", that lifted me out of a morass, coz he, in this message describes how Jacob, Israel wrestled with God, desperate and at the end of his rope, How Moses desired MORE of God when he cried, "Now show me Your glory", because he was hungry and desperate of more of God.

Desperate for God and that is the key to community/corporate/national revival.

It was a message delivered from the Throne and of the annointing of the Holy Spirit, and the assembly was so moved to cry out as thus....and this is a man to be careful of?

Brother, it's who one is DRAWN to, we are drawn to Jesus...yes!!!...and we are drawn to those ministers that have the indwelling of Jesus WITHIN them.

I praise God, because he has given me, I'm searching for the right word, he has given me the Knowledge to ascertain in the Spirit to those men, with His annointing who I am drawn to, and to those who I am NOT drawn to.

Early in my walk, one dear older brother, told me I had to watch a video of a great man, and I would be blessed, because he was holding a "revival meeting" next week. So out of respect and love I watched this video, it was Benny Hinn, and I watched about ten, fifteen minutes, all I could bear, because I was not drawn to Benny Hinn. I returned the video, and I said thank you for showing me this....thats all I said.

Now you might be thinking, why didnt you tell him he was decieved, because as a young believer that would be innappropriate, and because I believe firmly in my heart the Holy Ghost reveals all. There would be no heavenly profit in denouncing Benny Hinn to this older man who at that point was so cemented in his heart that Hinn was the real deal.

to put a button to this whole story, a few weeks later, we went to offering and this man was one of those collecting offerings. Now Pastor would allow a word in tongues provided that it was decent and in order, meaning an accompanying translation that lined up with the Word of God.

This older brother all of a sudden went off on tongues, and provided a translation that the whole assembly was aware that this extended utterance was NOT of God, and he was out of order, pastor quickly sidled up alongside, gently took his arm, and whispered in his ear, "thats enough", at the point the older man "seemed" to be "slain in the spirit", but three other brothers would not allow him to sink to the floor, they sat him down on the platform, however his wife in sympathy fell to the floor, and laid so thruout the rest of the service.

Later, pastor and several of the elders had a private meeting with the man, and explained why they believed he was out of order, and they did it gentle and in love, but the man, in religious pride, took his "toys" and huffed out leaving the assembly.

Two months later, in prayer the Spirit had told me to call him, and ask him in love to come back, and I was faithful. He was suprised to hear from me, and I told him I missed him, and loved him, and begged him in the name of Christ to forget what was behind and come back because we loved him, and he was part of the Body of Christ at our church. He rebuffed me and began a litany of complaints on how wrong the pastor was. I said while I respect your opinion, we are of the ministry of reconciliation, but his heart was hardened and he "made up" his [i][b]mind[/b][/i]

So I said, I love you, and let it go.

Its who you're drawn to: I am not drawn to Benny Hinn, Joyce Meier, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, D.James Kennedy, James Dobson, Mike Bickle, the Toronto Christian fellowship, or Rodney Howard Brown...NOR am I drawn to "discerment minstries", ocz , TO ME, it's just a lot of finger pointing, and constant reiteration of whats wrong with this ministry, or that minister, and to me, it reminds me of the pharisees, so I'm not drawn to that.

I'm drawn to the ministry of Michael Brown, who I might add took the Brownsville school of revival out of Brownsville and made it into the FIRE school. He got out of there.

I'm also drawn to the minstries of Evan Roberts, John Sung, David Brainerd, William Seymour, Duncan Campbell, as well as Chip Ingram. I've been reading the autobiography of Rev Josiah Henson, I'm drawn to him, he was the man Harriet Beecher Stowe based the character of Uncle Tom on, his life testimony is incredible. At 50, while a preacher, he couldn't read, having been prevented by his past slave masters to learn to read. Overcoming his pride, he admitted to his ten year old boy, who could read, to allow the lad to teach him to read....what a story.

Now brother, if you took offense with what I wrote in the regard of religious pride, I apologize, but when you get cemented in what you believe by reading third hand internet discernment ministries, and then disgorge this opinion on a forum, where its refuted, and then fail to backtrack, and say maybe I should I investigate deeper, and I didnt mean to slander or cast doubt on the ministry of another man.

You've never said that, and you've never said that you listened to any message from Michael Brown, yet you continue to provide links from men who have no qualms about slandering this man.

what is that?

Offending you is the last thing I wish to do, but I will call ya when I think your wrong.

I read deception in the church website many times, and I've gleaned very little fruit from it, quite the opposite.

so, there it is.

I prefer to conduct such dialogue in the light of the forum, not on PM, unless of course the discussion is sensitive, and needs discretion.

I say again, in all due respect, you should be circumspect about the implication of slandering a Godly minister, and should have the grace to apologize..

so there it is, I spoke my heart.

bartle

 2006/9/29 1:47
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re: Matt, thats my point exactly....

Bartle,

LIKE I said, if they were true moves of God, then praise God. I havent really looked into them all that much.


Quote:
You've never said that, and you've never said that you listened to any message from Michael Brown, yet you continue to provide links from men who have no qualms about slandering this man




You call it slander, we call it warning the church to be careful.



NOW, having said that, When I tell people to be careful of someone, I am not slandering. When I tell you to be careful of Bush, I am saying be careful of Bush, not slandering him. You need to be careful of who you say is slandering someone, and I say this out of love, so that YOU don't become religiously prideful.




Quote:
I read deception in the church website many times, and I've gleaned very little fruit from it, quite the opposite.



Well, that is great for you, but I have certainly been blessed, and I know others who have by this ministry, and others like it. They have a real heart for people and not seeing them deceived, but please don't say that, a ministry God has trusted them to, doesn't bare much fruit, Maybe God has called them to it.




Quote:
I'm drawn to the ministry of Michael Brown, who I might add took the Brownsville school of revival out of Brownsville and made it into the FIRE school. He got out of there.



Actually, he was kicked out of Brownsville, read this link, and this is on sermonindex, From Michael Brown's own handwriting

Link: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11041



Having said all of that, You said, you can measure if it was a true Revival by the Testimony, Okay, with My wife and her family, my former pastors experience, many trusted websites experiences/witnesses, and even on sermonindex, I would have to put this in the category of false revival.

here are some links on this very website, that document the occcurences on brownsville.

Link: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11046

Link:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11043

Link: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11043

Link: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11048



Here is a link to David Wilkerson's Reproach of the Solemn Assembly that I thought would be worth reading as well.


Link: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11022


That pretty much sums it up. If you got offended by me telling people to be careful of Michael Brown, then I am Sorry, but I will never stop from exposing what is obviously false. I am not saying Mr. Brown is false, but his association with this movement has put questions into my mind about him, Which is, TO BE CAREFUL OF HIM.

I really have nothing else to say on this thread. If you like to continue, them by all means pm me.

praise God, he is still on his throne.

God Bless you in love,

Matt


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/9/29 9:30Profile
YeshuaReigns
Member



Joined: 2006/10/7
Posts: 1


 Re:

I probably have no right replying to this since its under a Kanasas forum, but I wanted to reply about statements about the Brownsville Revival. Several years ago in my early 20s I first heard about the Brownsville Revival. I didnt know much about God and at the beginning I didnt like the revival when I first seen the videos.

But then I relealized lives were being changed there. I traveled there a few times, and I have to say my life was changed for the better in a mighty way. I went wanting more of God and for him to move in my life. He came through with flying colors. I felt a presence of God I have never felt, and my mindset was changed to realize how awesome God was and brough me closer to him.

I was a shy person before I encountered God, and before my few trips to the revival back in the late 90s. I am now today a bold person, changed by Gods Spirit and am not the same person I once was. I think when God moves not everything is gonna be perfect, as tremendous warfare follows. All we can do is to pray for Gods guidance and for his spirit to move. Thats all we can realy do. Just thought I would share my opinion. Thank you.

 2006/10/7 17:59Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Wow, this was a while back, but I will respond to Yeshuareigns,

I was just going through pensacola journal's newspaper interested in what I can find about the so-called revival at Brownsville. I found an article from the 23rd of October, and what suprised me the most, was not the article, but the comments from the readers posted on the bottom of the page, How depressing, I pray that everyone will pray for this church and all the people that were involved in the movement.

Link: http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006610230327



Here is what one woman said:


"Study History Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:09 am


My husband, daughter and I moved here for Revival in 1996. It was an incredible, life-altering experience. Certainly, the Holy Spirit was moving in a very special way.

I found it interesting Troy Moon stated the duration of Revival 1995-2000. I only wish the church leadership at that time could have accepted that. But, understandibly, no one wanted it to end. That was when things got a bit rocky.

It was during the next couple of years I began asking questions of God. Like, why is there one Bible and countless (25,000) denominations, all believing their branch is God's way? What does it mean to worship and what does worship look like? Why is communion optional?

I was led back to the ancient church. Two books, "The Story of Christian Theology" by R. Olson (a Baptist seminarian) and "Rome Sweet Home", by Dr. Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian theologian opened up church history before Luther. Aaahhh, the Holy Spirit was active and effective BEFORE the Protestant Reformation!

So, at last, I am home. In the safety of the Catholic Church, the Church that God gave the authority to canonize the Bible that we live by.

I am thankful Brownsville at last has a pastor that seems to want to shepherd and care for its flock. I am sure he will be a shining light to the community.

My prayer for the scattered discontents is they would dig deep and study the whole history of the Church and not stop at Martin Luther!
Posted by: Heidi Grether"




How Depressing, going back to the Catholic Church.


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/10/27 13:16Profile





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