The "dress code" in lTim mentions "decency, modesty, sensibleness, and inextravagance" , and all this, truly can be subjective. Even 'liberal' can be subjective. What's liberal or modest to you may not be to me....Only the individual conscience towards God in Christ can guide us away from all this subjectivity.
An older man wearing shorts vs. a younger man wearing shorts, someone living by the equator wearing shorts vs someone wearing shorts in North Pole......the list goes on.
I agree very much with all of your exhortations on this issue especially for my gender, except with the considerations of culture and weather, for it does cause me grief whenever I see ladies adorning themselves in contrary to the admonitions of lTim.
But, in a 3-digit temperature outdoor setting, I for one would not want to be sitting, next to anyone all covered up, doing that alone will cause me to feel physically uncomfortable, in hot weather, just looking at an over dressed person makes it all the hotter. Sensible?
Point being, there is no need to carry on and on and on about the dress codes, just like everything else in any beleiver's walk in the Lord, conviction comes by the Word and the Spirit, even so, at different times, and under different circumstances.
Would it sound right if I start a thread, " should Christians chew gum while assembling?"
or " " Should Christians wear red or blue..or wheat or white?" Is using fragrances or deodorants biblical"? ( Oh yeah, I've even encountered a person who's against the use of deodorant !!)
We know this world and it's church buildings are waxing worse and worse, but as for individual Christians, all admonitions and guidelines pertaining to externality will only be complied when the person's internal condition is in alignment with the Word.
There once was a God-loving man that went to the church building we used to go, while everyone dressed pristinely and conservatively, this man, a minority man, dressed very sloppily and on Sunday nights, he would always come in casual long shorts with a big hawaiian shirt. The rest of the man there 'hate' him for this. But you know what, I happened to find him a genuine and passionate soul who loves the LORD a great deal through other observations. And no, it's not his shorts that had tempted me to support him, this was an elderly man, who might just happen to be poorer or poorly educated. We'd enjoy continue fellowship with this man if he hadn't finally left, far better than with those other layer-clothed, pious, "holy-looking" ones there. The ones with sort of " the form of godliness ",the properly dressed Pharisees.
To me, a layer-clothed man/woman manifests just that, a layered body, it indicates not the spirit and soul of the person. Nothing more! Carry this too far will easily induce self-pride. Any time we pass judgment on others' externality, aside from overt indecency and vulgarity, might bring judgment upon ourselves when we judge one-sidely. Remember where Paul taught against juding others " food and drink "?( the external preferences of others).?
| 2006/9/30 10:33||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Missing the point|
I disagree with all of your deductions Doug. You have gone well past anything remotely scriptural with all this from the onset. You brought forth an argument based on a supposition then ask for a proving of it wrong by scripture. The evidence is yours to bear, not the other way around. You have a faulty understanding of terms, what is constituting 'nakedness' amongst others, attempt to take exhortations to woman and apply them to men, and fail to realize that you are bringing forth a leaglism that [i]you[/i] would bestow on everyone else. Hardly is it advice you are seeking, only support for a faulty argument and argument for arguments sake. If you truly want to carry this out to it's logical conclusions there are any number of laws that you can strain gnats at. This is beyond absurd and a practical pragmatism at best.
To over emphasize what constitutes modesty for men in this fashion is to miss the forest for the trees. Just as well, your penchant for tossing about labels, i.e. 'infidels' and other insinuations exposes a pride and haughtiness that no amount of clothing is going to disguise. Get your facts straight and pay a visit to Matthew 23 again.
Listen to what others are trying to say to you.
| 2006/9/30 12:26||Profile|
I want to make it clear to you and all other viewers that I DON't practice this dual covering. I know people that do and it seems that their argument is not able to hold up. This makes me some what glad you see, for I'm a framer and two layers would be extremely hot in the summer.
The thought of dual layering was vary convicting at first and all of the posts on this thread have given me much insight. I have been searching the scriptures and found in John 13:4 a verse that can disprove double coverings for men.
In Christ, bro Doug
| 2006/9/30 15:41||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
I want to make it clear to you and all other viewers that I DON't practice this dual covering. I know people that do and it seems that their argument is not able to hold up.
Hold on a second, that is not what you have been saying whatsoever or otherwise you are now in a catch-22 of not practicing what you preach. On top of that you were forwarding the same argument that you now say can't be held up? Now you may have changed your mind as you have alluded, or you are equivicating.
I personally don't believe that believers should wear shorts and go without sleeves down to the elbow. We must be considerate to our sisters in Christ. We mustn't temp them in this way. And the same for them to us. Our clothes must be different than the world so that they can be a witness and set us apart from the infidel.
It's going to take a lot more than clothes and if that is your conviction that's fine, have a bit of trouble still where your heart is ...
[i]But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.[/i]
1 Samuel 16:7
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
There is still the weighter matters brother.
| 2006/9/30 16:31||Profile|
Hold on a second, that is not what you have been saying whatsoever or otherwise you are now in a catch-22 of not practicing what you preach.
Perhaps you didn't read my first post other wise you wouldn't be so quick to say this.
"Please give input on this subject, (scripture to refute this claim), for I have not made a decision on this matter. I'm waiting for a word from God. Keep in mind I don't submit to this standard as of yet so I would really appreciate a counter argument with scripture not opinion please."
Why are you accusing me of not doing what I preach? Did I once on this entire thread tell one brother that he must do something (double covering) when I myself honestly said in my first post that "I" don't do this practice.
have a bit of trouble still where your heart is ...
"Were is your heart?"
You seem vary apt to accuse me of judging others and yourself when I have done no such thing.But who has really not been practicing what they preach? That's as far as I'm going there because this is getting ridiculous.
Let us stop the stupid word battle for we both sound like two five year olds filling the air with accusations.
And before you start throwing at me "judge not" you throw it at your own self and then if you will not be making a rash judgement, then throw it at me. What ever we intend to say to each other we need to examine that area in our own lives.
There is no problem here, we shouldn't try to make one.
| 2006/9/30 18:09||Profile|
Let [i]us[/i] stop the stupid word battle for[i] we both [/i]sound like two five year olds filling the air with accusations
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem [i]other [/i]better than themselves.[/b]
sorry to interrupt :)
Just because Crsschk, while doing his job in the Lord as a Moderator didn't agree with you, and tried to help you see certain things, there was no need to belittle yourself or him as the above.
I assure you, Crsschk is not the type of moderators that casually throw "rash judgments" on forum members, not during my time on SI anyways. I have always noticed his forbearance and compassion in his posts for others as a moderator.
| 2006/10/1 1:03||Profile|