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Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Modesty for men! But how far?

Hi brethren,

A thread on this subject may have already been discussed but nevertheless I would like to post this.

In some of the conservative movements the women are covered and modest. But the men are dressed in worldly apparel are indistinguishable from non-believers. This is wrong and hypocritical.

A few questions for all of us to dwell on...
1. How was our Lord Jesus clothed? In a pair of shorts and no shirt? Not at all. Just the thought sounds like a hippy Jesus and blasphemous. Our Jesus, (Our example), was and is clothed like this: "And in the midst of the seven candle sticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle" (Rev. 1:13).
Christ is a man, think we would all agree on that, and His body is fully covered.

Garment: Poderes (4158); a garment reaching down to the feet, almost the same as stole (4749).

2. In the beginning of the church the followers of Christ were clothed far more than the modern watered down church. It a shame.
When Jesus was giving the New Covenant laws in Matthew 5 He spoke on clothing. "And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." (Matthew 5:40)
These early disciples that Jesus spoke these words to were wearing two garments at the same time.
Coat: Chiton (5509) tunic or shirt, Inner garment.

Cloak: Himation (2440) a loose upper garment.

The point is that God intends us men to be double layered.

3. One more argument for men being double layered is found in John 21:7. "Therefore the disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fishers coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea."

Peter was not un clothed in the boat with the guys. No, he was considered naked by the Lord for he was only wearing his under garment. The Greek proves this fact...

Naked: Gumnos (1131) naked or striped of the upper garment (John 21:7; Acts 19:16).

What did he put on to cover up?

Coat: Ependutes (1903) an outer garment.

Therefore Peter knew that he was naked, but he still had his "Chiton" on. He was covered by our corrupt standards, but not before the living God. Hence he put on a second layer.

Please give input on this subject, (scripture to refute this claim), for I have not made a decision on this matter. I'm waiting for a word from God. Keep in mind I don't submit to this standard as of yet so I would really appreciate a counter argument with scripture not opinion please.

May God be glorified through His own, bro Doug

 2006/9/24 20:38Profile
daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re: Modesty for men! But how far?

Hi,

what exactly do you mean with "double layered"?
How would you suggest clothing in practice refering to "double layered" ?
Do i have to wear 2 t-shirts?
I am not kidding, just curious about this.

greets
daniel


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2006/9/25 11:25Profile









 Re: Modesty for men! But how far?

I would say that if I was runing around in my underwear I would be naked without a doudt.
So it was his undies and he had to put his overgarment back on.

I believe that men need to be modest and discrete and unwordly in there attire.
The scriptural call is directed to women because men are primarly visual where as women are primarly emotional in appeal. Now of course a women is also attracted to a mans physique as is a man to a women personality.

A good model for men to display modesty would be this. shirts that are moderate and do not overly accent the muscles. Tank tops and sleevless shirts would not be good.
Pants should not be tight nor overly loose,(big baggy pants that hang down, this is worldly.

To extremes would be Amish we know what thats like. or southern california beach christian ready for the surf dude in speedo shorts and long wavy ted nugent hair!

The model I laid out is a good general moderate approach to displaying a modest christian appearance.

I'm sure even then someone will cry legalisim, but then they would say that about women trying to be modest as well. God bless, John

 2006/9/25 12:30









 Re:

oh and one more thing. We do this to GLORIFY GOD.
Anytime we are obedient to him we Glorify Him. Testifying that we are a peculiar people set apart for him.

 2006/9/25 12:33
Flash_red
Member



Joined: 2006/9/19
Posts: 7
Moody Bible Institute

 Re: Modesty for men! But how far?

While talking about dressing modestly, it is important to remember two things:

1.) We have freedom in Christ from the Law, which included a form of a dress code (see Galatians)
2.) Our choices should reflect a geniune desire to glorify God, and not cause others to stumble all the while maintaining patience with those whose faith is weak (see Romans 14).

I see little reason to think that Christ ever desired for His followers to dress in the same manner that He did. He never mentions dress standards, instead focusing on acting as He acted and following His commands. Since none of His commands deal with clothes, it should be noted that each Christian should adhere to personal conviction from the Holy Spirit at all times remembering others and their struggles with the sin of lust.


_________________
Eric

 2006/9/25 17:05Profile
daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re:

amen.
sometimes i get the impression that we set some "standards" we think reflect holiness but have nothing to do with holiness.

we are not to live under a set of regulations.
i am not implying that i can run around naked :)hope you get my point.


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2006/9/25 18:13Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

let's be careful not to use primarily narrative scriptures to form doctrines, especially when the narrative really has nothing to do with the doctrine we are trying to form. I'm sure what John saw Jesus wearing in his revelation has much more symbolic significance to Jesus being Messiah/King/Judge than give us an idea as to how we are supposed to dress. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was addressing our actions toward God and others, not dress codes. In the passage from John, the motives for Peter putting on his coat are not discussed, and Jesus never chastises him for sinning in front of John.

Are we to dress in a way that is modest (not in any way "showing off" our bodies) and glorifying to God? Of course, always. Are we to watch out for our sisters when we dress? Absolutely. But let's be careful how we form such doctrines, and twist not the scriptures ;-)


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2006/9/25 18:13Profile









 Re:

Good words BeYeDoers.

Let everything be established by two or three witness.

And they gave themselves to the apostles teaching

Paul who proclaims himself a teacher to the gentiles in book of Timothy then goes on to declare how women are to dress for modesty sake.

Peter echoes basically the same thing in his letter.

The call to modesty not only in dress but in inward parts is there. There for the purpose of glorifying God.

The call to modesty is not a call to "legalism" but rather to freedom. Freedom from the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and boastfull pride of life. Paul taught this in all the churches.

The prescription I gave for modesty comes from years of having fellowshipped with both Assemblies of God, non denominational fellowships, Home fellowships Mennonite fellowships, and Baptist fellowships. For what it's worth.
God bless, john

 2006/9/25 18:26
Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Hi Flash,

You said,

Quote:
I see little reason to think that Christ ever desired for His followers to dress in the same manner that He did. He never mentions dress standards, instead focusing on acting as He acted and following His commands. Since none of His commands deal with clothes,



Sorry, but you are not correct. Paul spoke of a standard for modesty in 1 Timothy 2:9.

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel..."

Modest in this verse is, Kosmios (2887) Orderly, decent. That word alone shows that Christian clothing is to de clean looking and orderly.

The word for apparel is, Katastole (2689) Loose outer garment. This garment was a double layered, (at the top), dress that covered the entire body down to the feet.

So there is a standard of dress for believers.

Another interesting fact is that when dress is mentioned in the Bible, a second layer is put on the top half of the human body. Hence the double coverage.

You also said,
Quote:
1.) We have freedom in Christ from the Law, which included a form of a dress code (see Galatians)



We do have freedom from Torah. But that does not mean that this principle is nothing. No, the problem for your argument is that you aren't looking for were God did command His followers to dress different from this world. As I said before can you find one scripture that clearly refutes this? Please do not use that liberal argument concerning the law being fulfilled. Do you not know that the law was replaced by an even higher standard?

In Christ, bro Doug

 2006/9/25 22:36Profile
Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

BeYeDoers said,

Quote:
I'm sure what John saw Jesus wearing in his revelation has much more symbolic significance to Jesus being Messiah/King/Judge than give us an idea as to how we are supposed to dress.



I'm vary glad that you pointed this out. But let me ask you a question... How do you know that this is not to be taken literal for an application?
The vary fact that Christ's clothing is so emphasized reveals the truth show through His image to His followers. When Christ performed the first communion service His disciples knew that they were to continue in that "symbolic" rite. Would you not agree? Christ's actions are powerful and applicable. When the elders and chief priests struck Him did He resist them? No, our God practices what He preaches.

Again you have spoken truth.
Quote:
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was addressing our actions toward God and others, not dress codes.


Have you not heard that our actions speak louder than words? The clothing that a person wears is a clear witness to this fallen world. In America the people are so quick to throw off their clothes and glory in their flesh. In our every day life their could be no more better a witness ""seen"" than a Christian in modest plainer apparel. This is the reason why God even put this verse in Matthew 5. Jesus is speaking on retaliation but He speaks a few examples to His disciples.

1. "Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Jesus warns us here of the coming persecutions.

2. And if any man will sue the at the law, and take away thy coat, (inner garment) let him have thy cloak (upper outer garment) also. Jesus expected His follower to be brought before courts. And He uses a common held practice, (modest dual covering), as an example of this.

The fact that a dual layered garment is mentioned in Matthew 5 shows that it was a common practice. Only in later times have people grown so immodest as to throw caution to the wind. Not to long back a man could be kicked off a public beach for not wearing a modest shirt.
I do not necessarily use this text to prove a commandment but rather to show a Godly higher standard.

Quote:
In the passage from John, the motives for Peter putting on his coat are not discussed, and Jesus never chastises him for sinning in front of John.



Nor did Jesus chasten Peter for denying Him. Does that mean that its ok to deny Christ at the drop of a hat? I think not. I could easily say that the reason for Jesus not rebuking Peter for shedding off his upper garment is because peter repented and put it back on. At that time some the disciples of Christ were somewhat in a state of disbelief and (if we should be double covered), disobedience, Mark 16:11, 15:13.

Quote:
Are we to dress in a way that is modest (not in any way "showing off" our bodies) and glorifying to God? Of course, always. Are we to watch out for our sisters when we dress? Absolutely. But let's be careful how we form such doctrines, and twist not the scriptures



I appreciate your warning and exhortation :-) But I must also say that this is not a "newly" formed doctrine since the early believers held to it.

May God be glorified through us, bro Doug

 2006/9/25 23:29Profile





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