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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : GOD hates sin , but loves the sinner?

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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

thats true... but still those verses are there! we cant just well yeah yeah..im focusing on this love thing... witch is great ...dont get me wrong ... i know god loves me, he has such a love for me i dont think its humenly possible to fully understand how much he loves...it is impossibe, but how much we talk about his love..i admit the love should be our focus as belivers... it was his love and grace that saved us... but it CLEARLY SAYS god hates.... i just cant think well yeah thats not so important..id just rather focus over here its so much nicer reading... i just want "the whole" picture... god is love...that is more true then we can figure out in a life time... and we will experince that love for all eternity.. but still he hates to...and i just want to go deeper whit that... i want to see all of gods attributes..even if it scares me...even if it not may feel so good for me.. i wanna see all of god...not just one side..i just cant close my eyes to some verses.... i hope you understand...

christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2006/9/23 14:08Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Here is a thought I would like to share (do with it what you want..):

Maybe part of the confusion is thinking that (God's)love and (God's)hate are utter opposites. What is the opposite of God's love (agape)? Selfishness. True love is willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of others. God's hate does not contridict His love, but complements it. Also they cannot be opposites or God contridicts Himself.

Here is another thought that helps me relate the two:

I know of a pastor who his son was living in utter sin. He was involved in drugs, and would bring them in the house. The pastor told his son (with much greif- not joy) that he had to either leave or never bring the drugs in his presense or the house. He was angry at his son for the wickedness he was involved in. He wasn't angry because the son "didn't know any better" or was ignorant, but because the son knowing what was Godly willingly and openly rejected it. The man didn't lack love for the son, but loved righteouness and holiness above that. The son did decide to leave, but later on has cleaned up his life conciderable- yet is still not converted.

I see that God has a general (pardon the term if you don't like it..) love for His creation. There surely has to be a different kind of love for His children or why would we be told to abide in His love and yet He loved the whole world? That wouldn't make sense if it were the same, or whether you abode in His love or not you will still fall under the catagory of "the world," right? So it seems to me (I may be wrong) that God has a general love for His creation, but a special love for His children.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/9/23 18:16Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Was this my exhortation regarding the question you responded to? Mind you it was a genuine question because I don't understand.

That wasn't directed towards you personally! Just anybody with the wrong view of God. It wasn't YOUR personal exhortation, just a simple reminder. No problems :)


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Kristy

 2006/9/23 18:49Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
If God hates sinners then He certainly goes through alot of trouble to bring them to salvation.

It sounds like to you are trying to imply that He doesn't hates workers of iniquity. You might want to read back in this post to the verses that were brought up.


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Kristy

 2006/9/23 18:53Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

A question: If Christ died for the sin of the whole world, where does that leave sin in the eyes of God? If God is just He could never allow sin. God is just so how does he allow sin and not destroy sin and the sinner? God had to be justified in allowing sin and the sinner. Why did Christ go to the Cross? There is love in God and God is love, but He had to be justified in loving those that are sinners without destroying every sinner. True God hates sin that makes the sinner the hated one. God does not hate sin and love the sinner. God hates sin and the sinner. God being justified in the Death of His only begotten Son could look at the sinner and say Now I Can Save some if they only believe what I have done, I am now justified in saving son's for My House.

God almost wiped out the whole world in the Flood. But God knowing before the foundation of the world Christ would die for the sin of the world, He chose One man and his family by His mercy, to finish the Plan of Christ in the believer, being His Plan before the foundation of the earth.

Ephesians 1:4-7 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

So God hating sin and the sinner, is justified in saving the sinner by the death on the Cross of His Son and the shedding of His Blood.

Sin and the sinner are still just as bad as they ever were and that should be our guide in not wanting to sin, because The God or Creation wanted son's because of His Great Love of wanting son's that could love Him back of their own free will because Justification and Righteousness in Christ made it possible for God to place that Son in the believer that would be true offspring of The God who knew what He wanted, not just created beings that could not be son's with the nature of the Son of God, by birthright, with the same capacity to Love the Father as Jesus Christ loved Him and gave Himself for the Father's Justification and for His own Love for the Father and those that are saved by believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/23 21:03Profile
mamaluk
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Joined: 2006/6/12
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 Re:

Deuteronomy 9:8
Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was [b]angry with you[/b] to have destroyed you.
Deuteronomy 9:20
And the LORD was [b]very angry with Aaron[/b] to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.
1 Kings 11:9
And the LORD was [b]angry with Solomon,[/b]
Psalm 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, [b]and God is angry with the wicked every day.[/b]
Psalm 85:5
Wilt thou be [b]angry with us[/b] for ever? wilt thou draw out thine[b] anger to all generations?[/b]

God's angry not only at sins but sinners.
Without CHRIST's shed Blood, we don't have a chance !! Let's not kid ourselves that God hates one's sins but not sinners, outside of Christ, no one shall be able to stand at His judgment and condemnation.

God's righteous hate is part of God's attributes. Without it we well have no need for Christ. by this same 'hate', HIS love shines forth, first and foremost to HIS SON, and through HIS SON to these hated sinners.

Isn't GOD so gracious?




 2006/9/23 22:05Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

LOVE AND HATE

The difficulty in all this comes in our limited understanding and knowledge. Superficially, given what we hear and know, we may seem to find conflict. However, as we know there is no conflict in God.

Let us break down LOVE and HATE into definitive terms that are easy to understand.

LOVE is simply the giving of oneself over to the growth, life, and benefit of another. In words we can understand: love seeks to create, to nurture, to provide, to uplift, to build, and to uphold. When we call God our Father, we are acknowledging that God is the provider of our life, the one who gives of Himself so that we in turn my have life. When we think of Jesus dying on the cross, it was for this very reason. He gave His life as a sacrifice so that we may have life.

HATE is simply the giving of oneself over to destruction and end. In words we can understand: hate seeks to destroy, conquer, demolish, remove, and put to an end.

We must understand that both LOVE and HATE are acts where the "self" is given toward the other. Selfishness is not an act of hate. Rather, selfishness is something all together different. Selfishness is simply a person giving oneself to self.

In this, it must be noted that when we love, hate, or act selfishly, our whole purpose becomes just that. When we love someone, our life purpose or "will" is for the good of that person. When we hate someone, our life purpose or "will" is for the evil of that person. When we are being selfish, our life purpose or "will" is for ourself.

This is important to understand because love and hate are active pursuits. It is something sought after. It is something continual. Of course, hate cannot continue once it has achieved it's goal. Once hate wins, destruction occurs, and then hate is left alone.

Quick recap....
LOVE = good will towards something or someone
HATE = evil will towards something or someone

HATE is best seen in Satan. The Devil hates God and hates us. His goal is to seek God's destruction and our destruction. Satan never ceases to seek this goal. It doesn't matter what happens, he overcome with hate. He will seek our end until either he dies or we do.

God is love. He does not wish anyone to perish or come to an end. God seeks to give us eternal life. He seeks to love us and care for us for eternity.

God is love. His will is good. He seeks what is good and best for all. He does not put Himself first at any moment. Rather, He puts all other things first before Himself.

You might stop here and think, "Yeah, but all things are done for God. I mean, we glorify God and give all things to Him. Isn't that selfish?"

It is not, because God is Holy. You have to consider who God is. The word Holy means "sacred." God is sacred because all things depend on God. He is the creator of all things. God gives life to all things. God gives definition to all things. This means that if God is great, then all things are great. Whatever God is, all other things benefit from it. If we give God all the glory, then all things are glorified together with Him, because God gives definition to all things. Also, God gives life to all things. God is Holy and so life is sacred.

In addition, God is good. This means that since God is good, all other things benefit from God's goodness. Think of it like this, if you give God all your money, you can trust that He will use it for good things. It is important all things are given to God, because He will use it for good. Jesus said, "Only God is good."

God is love and God is good. These are not contradictory, in fact, they are complementary. They go together. Love is good will. Love seeks the good of the thing or person to which love is directed.

Obviously, there are things that God does wish to be destroyed and come to an end. This, of course, is sin. What is sin?

Obviously, sin is loosely used in the bible to describe several things. Sin is used to describe our fall, how we "missed the mark." Sin is also used to describe those who are "unrepentant."

If we were to give it one definition to suit all, we would have to say that sin is the opposite of God's will. God is love. God's will is good. And so, sin is the rejection of God's love. In addition, if love is the giving of oneself, then sin is the rejection of God.

A "sinner" is someone who rejects God. And God hates sinners. He seeks to destroy anyone who rejects Him. Anyone who rejects God is His enemy.

At first, you might think, "That's not fair." or "But Jesus said we should love our enemies."

You must think of it like this. God is good. If you reject God, you are rejecting good. This means, you are evil. If you are evil, then your desire is either 1) selfishness or 2) hate. This means you are abusing the love of God. You are taking His love for granted and abusing it. In addition, you are dethroning God and defiling God. You are stripping Him away of His position and tainting His Holiness. In turn, you are hurting, not only God, but all things. And if God allows evil or selfishness to continue, eventually it will put an end to all things.

God loves His enemies, however, he hates that they reject Him. But you must ask yourself, what can God do when they reject Him?

I often think of my ex-fiance in this situation. I loved her and wanted to marry her. At first, she agreed. But then something changed. She didn't want me anymore. She gave me the ring back and left with another man. What was I to do? I cannot force her to love me. It is her choice. And so, I did the only thing I could. I let her go.

God does the same. He lets us go. However, to be without God is to be without life, without love, without peace, without joy, and without everything good.

Now, we must also consider Hell in this equation. Let us say you were engaged, and a friend of yours suddenly turned on you. He hated you and your fiance. He hurt you by hurting her, abusing her, and much more. Would you not punish him? Would you not seek justice?

The Devil did just this. The Devil sought to dethrone God by destroying His Holiness. He sought to defile that which is sacred. And so, in justice, God created Hell.

Now, think of this. Your fiance to whom you love suddenly loves your enemy and seek to murder you.

People are sent to hell because they follow the Devil there. They make the Devil their husband and in they spend eternity with Him forever.

Of course, God is love, and his mecry and compassion are endless. For those who repent and seek Him, He has made a way for redemption.

As we know, Jesus came to save sinners. Why is it we should be saved?

Initially, in the garden, we rejected God. We wanted to do things our way. We sinned. However, God also knew that we it wasn't entirely our fault. We were decieved by the Devil. And so, God gave us a chance and time to repent. He also made a way that we may be saved through His son and God's greatest act of love.

Through Jesus Christ, we may be born again. We may be transformed from a fallen creature and made new. We are not "restored" creatures, rather, we are resurrected. We are made into something greater than Adam and Eve. They were made of dust in fleshly bodies, and in our future glory, we will have spiritual bodes. God will lift us up higher than we can ever imagine in our current state or history.

The bible speaks of God's elect. These are God's righteous. These are the bride of Christ. These are the ones who will be transformed into a glorious state.

Now, these loves ones were once lost. They were once attacked by the Devil and even killed. God's own son was murdered on a cross. In addition, God's chosen people have suffered under immense persecution and such from the Devil.

God will one day bring justice to His elect by sending the Devil and his people to Hell. This justice is for God's loved ones. They will be Holy, just as He is Holy, and reign in Heaven with Christ. By sending the Devil to Hell, God is making a declaration of not merely His Holiness, but of the Holiness of His Church.

Back to God's hate....

God hates sinners because they defile His Holy ones. They are an abomination because they commit adultery against God. God is offering Himself to them, and they reject Him. God seeks to destroy sinners in order to uphold righteousness. Obviously, when a person is born again, they are transformed. They are no longer a sinner. And so, those who are in Christ will not suffer God's wrath. They have not rejected God. They have accepted Jesus.

In conclusion, saying "God hates the wicked" and "God is love" are not contradictory. God wishes that the wicked were not wicked, that they would change. God cannot force them to change. God is offering His Son to them, so that they may be redeemed. However, they have chose to reject His Son. In addition, they persecute God's people. They hurt the ones He loves. God hates sinners, and He will seek justice for the one's he loves.

As a last note: Jesus said "love your enemies." You must keep in mind that God has a day set aside for judgment. He has an hour established for punishment. This time has not yet come. Until then, God is allowing sinners to live and commit evil. Instead, Jesus said "love your enemies." Give yourself to them. Help them, care for them. Jesus said if someone forces you to walk one mile, walk two with them.

Why? Why is would God say such a thing? Why would God allow people to abuse Him and His people like this?

Because God knows He is greater than all things. He is the chess champion who has already won the game. He is just moving the pieces around the board.

God allows evil to persist and sinners to live in order that all may have a chance to repent. God allows evil so that people may be humbled and see their sin. He allows pain and suffering so that we may see our need for Him and appreciate Him even more.

Love your enemies. God is with you. Let your light shine. God has promised He will care for us. God will give you new life. He made that promise. Don't worry about your life. Give it away. Let evil take advantage of you so that God's mercy may be displayed.

Jesus submitted unto the cross. Three days later, He was raised from the dead!!! You will be raised just as Jesus was raised.

We don't know who is really our enemy here on earth. All people who are alive have the hope of Jesus. There is a chance they could repent. God knows if they will repent. God allows the unrepentant to live in order to humble the repentant. However, we cannot see the heart of a person. We must abide in Christ and let Him take control.

The day of judgment will come. Until then, we must be abandoned to Christ so that His Spirit may control us, and as a result we produce fruit worthy of our calling.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/9/23 22:49Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

K_DAY wrote:
I think we need some clarification here. In witnessing to poeple whose lives are characterized by seperation and sin, is it erroneous to say to them that the reason Christ died for them is because he loves them and wanted to provide an alternative to the wrath they deserve? John 3:16.


John 3:16 when taken in context with v17-18, is really a statement of judgement. It is God saying, "Look I've done all I can do. If you believe not on the only begotten Son, you're condemned already."
Quote:

Is the suggestion that we are supposed to love all people (even our enemies) while God secretly hates his? Furthermore, God's love is unconditional. If he hated all sinners and then loved them as soon as they turned to him, does this make him inconsistant?


Where did you ever get the idea that God's love is [b]unconditional[/b]? Agape love is characterised by its expression being based on [b]giving[/b] as opposed to [b]exchange[/b]. It is described when Jesus spoke of God sending rain on the just and the unjust alike, when He exhorted us to love our enemies. Note that the one who is loved in this illustration is still an [b]enemy[/b]. God's [b]conditional love[/b] is one of patience, that desires repentance.
Quote:

There has to be a balance. The Bible continually talks about God's righteous anger towards sinners and sin. It also talks about his love for mankind demonstrated by his death for them on the cross. Can god hate them and love them at the same time? What about us? We are to hate what God hates - does that mean men?

Maybe I am missing the point?



My I direct your attention to a piece that I wrote called [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10691&forum=36#82859]Appropriate Affection Toward the Enemy of God
[/url]? This deals with the question that you have raised here.


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/9/24 9:48Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Thank you for your comment! I'd just like to draw your attention to one thing you said...

Quote:
Initially, in the garden, we rejected God. We wanted to do things our way. We sinned. However, God also knew that we it wasn't entirely our fault. We were decieved by the Devil. And so, God gave us a chance and time to repent. He also made a way that we may be saved through His son and God's greatest act of love.


God gave us a time to repent purely out of His GRACE. No where in scripture does it say that God had to do anything for us. Grace is charactherized by a giving of something good undeserved. I believe as scripture states it was purely God's grace and not anything else. Somethings are better left as scripture states. Such as God's sovergnity and man's responsibility. Grace is given to somebody who does not deserve it. God didn't owe humanity anything. He doesn't owe anybody. It was soley upon His good will that He saved anybody.

Ephesians 1:5
"having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"


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Kristy

 2006/9/27 14:54Profile





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