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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I just disagree with you here, brother. The Father gave the Son, the Son gave the Spirit. The Holy Ghost is indeed the Spirit of Christ:



A reference from Ezekiel might help...

[color=0000ff]“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” (Ezek 36:26-27 KJVS)[/color]

You will see from this that one of the promises of the New Covenant was that we would have 'two' spirits! A 'new spirit' and 'my spirit'. Christ also had 'two spirits'. His 'human spirit' was 'holy' but was not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit 'christed' him at his baptism. This was in accord with the promise of Isaiah...
[color=0000ff]“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.” (Is 61:1-3 KJVS)[/color] The Spirit that came [u]upon[/u] was the Holy Spirit not his own 'human spirit'.

The Spirit of Christ, that is the Spirit which he gives, in indeed the Holy Spirit. But the 'Spirit of Christ' is not his 'human spirit'. He was driven by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness but this was the Holy Spirit in his distinctive identity and not some compulsion of his 'human spirit' Finall, He does not give us his 'human spirit' but the 'Spirit' that the Father gave to him on his ascension. We need to keep the two distinct in our understanding.

Quote:
He didn't breathe out the Holy Ghost on the cross, He rather breathed His last, and gave up the Ghost. In other words, the Holy Ghost was unleashed, but not yet breathed out, and not yet poured out.

Who leashed the Spirit before he was 'unleashed'? You are aware, I'm sure that the words 'Ghost' and 'Spirit' are two translations of the same word. The 'spirit' he breathed out on the cross was not the Holy Spirit but his own spirit.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/29 6:55Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

I will consider your thoughts as I continue to study. I think that many would probably agree with either of us. I suppose that many would consider this unimportant, but I want to be lead into ALL truth. I will keep an open mind as the Holy Spirit guides us.

As of about 24 hours ago, I think my ideas about the Father unleashing the Holy Ghost may have changed radically. I would even go so far to say that the Israelites' camp may have received baptisms of the Holy Ghost:

Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

1 Sam 19:20-21 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also.

These are not the only definitions of prophesy, but these are one of the given definitions in each case:

Hebrew / Naba' - under influence of divine spirit

Greek / Propheteuo - to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation

...right now I am leaning toward Pentecost not being a new dispensation or plan, but God's Spirit falling upon ALL flesh vs the flesh of Israel; in that the Spirit stayed only within the camp / prophets, etc, whereas the Spirit's intent was to fall upon Jews AND Gentiles after Pentecost.


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Hal Bachman

 2006/9/29 23:06Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
As of about 24 hours ago, I think my ideas about the Father unleashing the Holy Ghost may have changed radically. I would even go so far to say that the Israelites' camp may have received baptisms of the Holy Ghost:



How would this fit it with the statement... [color=0000ff]“I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!” (Luke 12:49-50 KJVS)[/color]? The word 'accomplished' is from 'teleO' and is the verb used by Christ in the Calvary's victory cry "is is finished".

Quote:
...right now I am leaning toward Pentecost not being a new dispensation or plan, but God's Spirit falling upon ALL flesh vs the flesh of Israel; in that the Spirit stayed only within the camp / prophets, etc, whereas the Spirit's intent was to fall upon Jews AND Gentiles after Pentecost.


But this would be opposed to the direct promise of Pentecost [color=0000ff]“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:” (Joel 2:28 KJVS)[/color] and Peter's clear statement that [color=0000ff]“... the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Acts 2:39 KJVS)[/color]

Do you not think that the promise of the Spirit made by Christ to the disciples indicated a new dimension of experience of the Spirit; 'in you'? and do you not equate that promise with its fulfillment on the day of Pentecost?

The word 'baptism' is not to be applied lightly to just any experience of the Spirit of God. It was directly promised to the disciples of Christ [color=0000f]“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” (Acts 1:5 KJVS)[/color]


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/30 4:21Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

"How would this fit it with the statement... “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!”"

Well, first off, I read that even the OT saints were baptized:

1 Cor 10:
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Obviously from Jesus' language, He was specific about the baptism to come, and obviously spoke to the fact that there was more that one type of baptism.

I don't believe that up to Pentecost, that the Holy Spirit's baptism was of fire. The metaphors were 'water' and 'cloud' as opposed to fire. I think the use of fire rather than water (John Baptist) was the same Spirit (the Spirit of Christ, the Rock), but a different blessing that came along with the baptism. I think that fire baptism is a direct statement toward the preaching of the gospel, (the same with the sword), of which John Baptist was the forerunner, and Jesus Himself was an example, who Himself did not begin His ministry until the Holy Ghost descended upon Him:

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Heb 1:7b Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

So prior to Pentecost there were baptisms of the Holy Ghost, I believe; it was the same Spirit, but a different gift (gift is synonomous with blessing).

"But this would be opposed to the direct promise of Pentecost “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh"

That is my point. The Spirit had never been poured out on the Gentiles. The Spirit had never been poured out on "ALL FLESH." That is why Peter was so hesistant to go to the Gentiles (Not so, Lord). But God said "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." The undefiled food becoming clean was a metaphor of the Gentiles being made clean, because God was now pouring His Spirit on "all flesh", not just the sheep of Israel.

"The word 'baptism' is not to be applied lightly to just any experience of the Spirit of God."

...I agree. They did use that word in the OT, but that doesn't mean that they did were not baptized; physically and spiritually. According to Paul (below) they were baptized into the body of Christ. The fact is that the OT saints were familiar with baptism. Just because the word is not used in the OT Hebrew doesn't mean it was not happening, physically (water) or spiritually (Holy Ghost). After all, Paul used the word this way:

1 Cor 10:2a And were all baptized unto Moses

1 Cor 12:13a For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This has only recently dawned on me, so I have not had time to study this, but apparenly there were some giants of the faith that felt the same way I do about it. That the Holy Ghost was falling upon people, but they used Hebrew terminology, which I am sure you know of all people, is not filled with adjectives, but is more verb oriented. So just because they described the experience differently, not using earmark words like "filled with" or "he shall baptize you" doesn't mean it wasn't a genuine Spirit baptism.

The word baptize is used even in the realm of the culinary arts, meaning to 'cover' or 'dip into'. So I believe the word baptize is used of salvation, being 'brought into' Christ, and is used in the filling of the Holy Ghost; being immersed after or in accordance with salvation.

"It was directly promised to the disciples of Christ “For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”"

I agree it was given to the disciples, (above). But, it was also given to the church at large, in that that message was preached to the masses by John Baptist. There were all types of people of Jerusalem present; disciples of John, Pharisees, Sadducees, citizens, publicans, soldiers:

Matt 3
1b John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea...
11 he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The message of Holy Ghost fire was not given in a corner the way it is today, that message was preached first, right along with the message of repentance and the Lamb of God. It was a message to the church, but the message was not confined only to 'known disciples', but rather everyone, so that all who might become disciples would know that God's Spirit was soon to be poured out. Even unbelievers would have heard this prophesy, seen it come true, and trample in under foot. In fact they did:

Acts 2

Unbelievers: 13b These men are full of new wine.

Peter: 15-16 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel

So just as the common man heard of the coming Messiah, and rejected Him when He came, so did they with the Holy Ghost when God fulfilled His promise. But the promise was broadcasted to every one who would listen, prior to the event.


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Hal Bachman

 2006/10/1 4:31Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Well, first off, I read that even the OT saints were baptized:

1 Cor 10:
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


But this was 'baptism into Moses' not into the Spirit.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/10/2 6:49Profile





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