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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Anyway, what I am saying is that I do believe Christ went immediately to heaven, and immediately to hell simultaneously, as He was made body, soul and spirit, just as we are. His spirit went to heaven, his body stayed in the tomb, and his soul went to hell.


Where does consciousness reside? What kind of existence is that with all the 'parts' split into different locations? Humanity began when God breathed spirit into a body and he became a living soul. What kind of creature is that if soul and spirit can exist independent of each other?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/26 5:31Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear letsgetbusy,

Something to consider...

If the day of judgment has not yet come, how is it anyone could be in Hell?

There is a difference between death and Hell.

Death, the grave as it may be called, is the consequence of sin. Death is the result of being seperated from God.

Hell is a place of torture and punishment for committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. A person who commits blasphemy attempts to dethrone the true and righteous God. They either claim to be god, or commit idoltary accepting the Devil as their god. A person sent to Hell seeks to defile God's Holiness.

Jesus will never enter Hell because He can never commit such a sin. He is God. He is Holy. He cannot undo His own Holiness. God will not commit blasphemy against Himself.

In addition, it must be noted that Hell is eternal. No one can come back from Hell. Hell is a place of final judgment. There is no hope. A person can be raised from the dead, but no one can come back from Hell.

Obviously, you have pointed out two scriptures which speak of Hell. However, in them they are speaking of the grave and death. In Pslams 16:10, it says, "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" What this scripture is saying is this: "You won't leave me dead, and you won't send me to Hell." Jesus died but was raised three days later. He was not left dead. Neither did Jesus enter Hell where Holiness is corrupted. His Holy One did not become corrupted in Hell.

In Acts 2:31, we see again that Jesus was not left for dead. He was resurrected.

Something to think about and consider.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/9/26 8:38Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 help!

bro Ron
so how do we reconcile Christ committing His Spirit into God's hands and then descending into the lower regions of the earth? Christ not only died but suffered separation from God on account of our sin hence He said, "my God my God why have you forsaken me?" does that not speak to Him going down to the lower regions of the earth? :-?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/26 15:05Profile
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro blake
but hell itsels is not the final destination for the word says that hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire once its all said and done. in Rev 20 the word says that hell gives up those in it for judgement, and then hell is cast into the lake of fire. it seems to me hell is temporary while the lake of fire is permanant. While blasphemy of Holy Spirit is unforgiveable, eternal punishment is also for those who reject the gift of salvation by grace.

Christ could not be corrupted while in hell because He hadn't done anything to deserve it. those who end up in the part of hell for the damned earned it on this side and i don't think one can sin any more when one is already condemned to hell.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/26 15:13Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

bro phil,

'What kind of creature is that if soul and spirit can exist independent of each other?'

Jesus is not a creature He is the Creator. His Spirit (the Holy Ghost) can exist seperate from Him, and still be the Spirit of Christ. God is not limited. Jesus left glory, and some of His glory when He left heaven, but after the cross, He was glorified, and limitless. He can exist in you and me simultaneously, with one conciousness.

NOTE: I did read these verses from Eph 4 just the other night which casted doubt on my prior statement:

[8] he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

...but upon further study, this seems to further my position, that Christ is indwelling all simultaneously, just as He could lead captive souls with His soul, with His Spirit (the Holy Ghost as I see it) going immediately to heaven.

I would not fist-fight over this, as it is like trying to get a firm grip on water. But I always take all the verses on a doctrine when interpreting it. I don't know if I would be a heretic for saying this, but I think when Jesus 'gave up the ghost', that was the Holy Ghost, going directly to heaven, His Spirit going into the Father's hands. If His soul went to heaven first, this would not jive with the above verse.


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Hal Bachman

 2006/9/27 0:05Profile
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 Re:

bro LGB

Quote:
Jesus is not a creature He is the Creator. His Spirit (the Holy Ghost) can exist seperate from Him, and still be the Spirit of Christ. God is not limited. Jesus left glory, and some of His glory when He left heaven, but after the cross, He was glorified, and limitless. He can exist in you and me simultaneously, with one conciousness.



we needed that, it got lost in the shuffle...

Quote:
I would not fist-fight over this, as it is like trying to get a firm grip on water. But I always take all the verses on a doctrine when interpreting it. I don't know if I would be a heretic for saying this, but I think when Jesus 'gave up the ghost', that was the Holy Ghost, going directly to heaven, His Spirit going into the Father's hands. If His soul went to heaven first, this would not jive with the above verse.



:-P that was funny


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/27 8:53Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re: help!

Quote:
so how do we reconcile Christ committing His Spirit into God's hands and then descending into the lower regions of the earth? Christ not only died but suffered separation from God on account of our sin hence He said, "my God my God why have you forsaken me?" does that not speak to Him going down to the lower regions of the earth?

Well, first lets get things into the right chronological order. ;-) He suffered separation from God on the cross not in Hades. The price paid was his separation from God at the moment of his cry of dereliction. It might be helpful to consider Psalm 22 at this point.

Psalm 22 is a psalm of 2 halves. The first is dark and brooding; He becomes both Sin-Bearer and Sin itself. He cries to His Father “and is heard”. Psalm 22:
“Save me from the lion’s mouth; Yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen thou hast answered me” (This is the ASV and I like the way it provides a watershed. The first sentence is the plea to His Father, the second it the triumphant cry of the victor) The Psalm divides halfway into verse 21.
The language of AV ‘thou hast heard me’ is echoed in Hebrews 5:7
“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;” (‘from death’ is not preventative. ‘from’ is ‘ek’ which means ‘out of’.) He was saved out of death. i.e. rescued not prevented. His cry (of Psalm 22) was heard! Greg has one of my messages on the site here which you might like to hear.[url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID1465.mp3]Psalm 22[/url]

At that moment 'thou hast heard me' His sacrifice had been accepted, the God-forsakenness was accomplished. From this point the Psalm moves into the bright sunshine of God's presence. And all this while still upon the cross! In many ways His resurrection was an inevitability, His death was the miracle made possible only because he 'dismissed his spirit': 'yielded' in Matt 27:50 should be translated 'dismissed'. This 'breathing out' immediately followed the triumphal cry:“When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”
(John 19:30 KJVS)His visit to 'the infernal regions' was to proclaim his victory not to acquire it.




Quote:
Jesus is not a creature He is the Creator. His Spirit (the Holy Ghost) can exist seperate from Him, and still be the Spirit of Christ. God is not limited.

You are getting into deep water here. The Holy Spirit is not a 'constituent part' of the man Christ Jesus in the same way that you and I have a 'constituent part' which we call 'spirit'. The wonder of the incarnation is that the Creator became a Creature. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
(John 1:14 NKJV) To 'become flesh' is not just to take up a human body but to become thoroughly human. Jesus did become 'a creature'. He did not cease being God, but he did become a creature.

If you equate the Holy Spirit with the 'spirit' of Jesus you create the confusion of his own spirit coming on him at Jordan and Christ breathing out his own spirit twice; once on the cross and once in the upper room.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/27 13:49Profile









 Re: Help with heaven, hell, paradise, sheol and free bible colleges

philologos said

Quote:
His visit to 'the infernal regions' was to [b]proclaim[/b] his victory not to acquire it.

Thank you. This statement fills the heart and spirit with joy and optimisim.

 2006/9/27 16:11
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 phew!

bro Ron
thanks a lot for clarifying all that. after all the year sof reading that scripture it didn't make a whole lot of sense ( i believed it anyway by His grace) until the explanation you gave.

thanks again bro and God bless


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/27 17:23Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

bro phil,

I just disagree with you here, brother. The Father gave the Son, the Son gave the Spirit. The Holy Ghost is indeed the Spirit of Christ:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of Christ is spoken of as being synonymous with the Spirit of God.

1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Now that verse from 1 Peter speaks of the prophets having the 'Spirit of Christ...in them.' If you are saying that the Spirit of Christ is different from the Holy Spirit, which one did the prophets have in them according to 1 Peter 11?

You even said it in your sermon, that when a man speaks in God's will, it is the Spirit, the testimony of Christ. No, it does not make any sense in man's economy, but Jesus did have a baptism / filling of the Holy Ghost, though He was sinless, and perfect in every way from the foundations of the world.

I have no problem believing that the Holy Ghost could light upon Christ at Jesus' baptism, lead Him into the wilderness, raise Him from the dead, be breathed out by Him on the disciples, and then be poured out by Him in Acts 2.

He gave up the Spirit at His death, descended into hell, returned to earth to breathe the Spirit on men, and then ascended to heaven to pour the Spirit out.

As far as questioning how Jesus could have His Spirit, but have the Spirit light on Him; this is one of many questions that the Scripture is quiet on. There are many:

-How can a normal man be filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb; John Baptist?
-How can Jesus be God, but be seperated from God?

He didn't breathe out the Holy Ghost on the cross, He rather breathed His last, and gave up the Ghost. In other words, the Holy Ghost was unleashed, but not yet breathed out, and not yet poured out.

I would ask you this. Is the Holy Ghost, God? Yes or no. That is what I think is important, here.

(Just listening to your sermon; I agree that we are not the only agency of God's love)


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Hal Bachman

 2006/9/28 23:39Profile





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