SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Help with heaven, hell, paradise, sheol and free bible colleges

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
coops
Member



Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 Help with heaven, hell, paradise, sheol and free bible colleges

I have started doing a course on [url=http://www.freebiblecollege.com]www.freebiblecollege.com[/url].

109 pages into the first course, it says this (regarding rich man and lazarus [Lk 16:22-26]):

Quote:
[size=small]The soul and spirit of man enters a new existence in eternity. There is still a personality, recognition of one person by another, and awareness of present conditions. The destiny of spirits of the righteous is different from that of spirits of the wicked. [b]Both Lazarus and the rich man went to a place of departed spirits called in the Hebrew language "Sheol" and in the Greek language "Hades".[/b] (Most of the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek).

[b]But the destinies of the two men were different. The rich man was in a place of torment called Hell. Lazarus was in a place of rest. Between these two places there was a gulf that could not be crossed from either side.[/b]

[b]The place of rest for departed spirits of the righteous was called "Abraham's bosom".[/b] This meant it was a place for those who followed the same faith of Abraham by serving the one true and living God.[/size]



and

Quote:
[size=small]The spirit of Jesus descended into "Sheol", the place of all departed spirits. [b]First He went to the place of the spirits of the righteous. This was called "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom".[/b]

[b]From paradise, Jesus went further into the area of "Sheol"[/b] reserved for the wicked spirits. This was necessary in order for Him to complete the work of atonement for man's sin. He had to endure both the physical and spiritual penalties of sin. The physical penalty was physical death. The spiritual penalty was separation from God which is called spiritual death. Jesus experienced that in "Sheol".[/size]



and then

Quote:
[size=small][b]The events between the death and resurrection of Jesus set a new pattern for the destiny of righteous souls. [u]Prior to Christ's resurrection, departed spirits of the righteous went to paradise. After the death and resurrection of Jesus, the spirits of the righteous could ascend immediately into the presence of God.[/u][/b] This is confirmed in the record of the death of Stephen.[/size]



I thought it was just heaven or hell. What is all this talk about Heaven in one place and "Paradise" and "hell" in "Sheol". I thought "sheol" was hell?

Can someone help me understand this (or point out where these guys are wrong...)?

Thanks so much... :-) :-) :-)


_________________
Coops

 2006/9/17 3:46Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Help with heaven, hell, paradise, sheol and free bible colleges

This is a subject we have discussed a few times on this site, and a legitimate one. There are many views of this, as always.

My view, after looking over the subject is basically what you posted, with a couple minor differences.

I believe that saints did not enter Heaven until after Jesus was glorified. I am still torn about Abraham's Bosom. I read a lot of Scriptures that talk about saints that 'sleep' and say 'how long?' etc. What exactly Abraham's Bosom was I can't say for sure, but I believe today we go immediately to be with the Lord.

I do agree that whatever state the OT saints were in, that Jesus took them from there to Heaven, often referred to as Him 'leading captivity captive.'

As far as the other side, I believe that there is Hell, and then the Lake of Fire. Hell is like jail, a temporary holding place, until the White Throne Judgment. Afterwhich all those who are not written in the Book of Life, Death, and Hell, will all be 'cast into the lake of fire.'

Again, many would disagree / agree with this. I believe that the rich man was pictured in Hell. I believe Jesus literally went there according to Psalms and Acts (not to suffer necessarily, but to take care of business). I believe those Hebrew and Greek words all refer to Hell, or certain parts of it. I don't buy into the neutral sounding holding place for the condemned (a 'grave' without torments, etc). I believe they have always gone immediately to torments, just as the rich man was pictured.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/9/17 23:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Help with heaven, hell, paradise, sheol and free bible colleges

Quote:
Can someone help me understand this (or point out where these guys are wrong...)?


Much of this is really conjecture. Many Bible students believe that before the cross all the dead 'waited' in a place known as Hades (or Sheol) which many believe had two compartments. The righteous were in one compartment which is sometimes called Abraham's Bosom or Paradise while the unrighteous awaited a final judgment. Many of these Bible students believe that Christ went to the 'Abraham's Bosom' compartment and released the saints to join him in heaven.

However some have gone further and say, as you quote, that..
Quote:
From paradise, Jesus went further into the area of "Sheol" reserved for the wicked spirits. This was necessary in order for Him to complete the work of atonement for man's sin. He had to endure both the physical and spiritual penalties of sin. The physical penalty was physical death. The spiritual penalty was separation from God which is called spiritual death. Jesus experienced that in "Sheol".

This has more serious implications than may appear and has become the stock in trade of some of the prosperity teachers. They teach, as did Medieval Catholicism, that Christ was taken captive into 'Hades' and then broke lose in resurrection. Keith Green wrote a song on this theme.

However, the Bible makes it very clear that all our our salvation was achieved by Christ's death upon the cross and not in any intermediate state. The idea that Christ's atonement was 'completed' in Hades is not biblical. It would mean that His cry of 'It is finished' was untrue. Christ suffered the 'death' which is separation from God on the cross; My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me'.

It seems, to me, that many Bible students have really gone much further than what is revealed to us.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/9/21 18:40Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 522


 Re:

I agree that what happened to Jesus during the 3 days after his crucifixion is pure speculation and nobody can be dogmatic about what really happened.

Quote:
However, the Bible makes it very clear that all our our salvation was achieved by Christ's death upon the cross and not in any intermediate state.


I could agree with this statement if instead of the word salvation you had used the phrase "forgiveness of sins". When Christ said "It is finished", he was referring to his having paid for our sins. Without his resurrection, we are unsaved.
1 Cor. 15:14 (KJV)
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

I hope you don't think I am nitpicking here, it is an important doctrine to understand. Christ suffered and died to pay the penalty for our sins and he was risen from the dead to give us life. He being the second Adam gives us life.

 2006/9/21 19:21Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1806
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

There are as few different word for heaven and hell. Gehenna is another word that is used in the psalms i can not promise you that I will answer your question but I have been talking about heaven and hell in my blog.
From my knowledge I have always believed that sheol was a place that old testament times.
The problem is we can only deal in what we know and what is written in the bible which is what we know and prayer.
Abrahams bosom may have been what we call heaven but this is where we have a problem with language.

Mt 25:41 - Show Context
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Quote:

The soul and spirit of man enters a new existence in eternity. There is still a personality, recognition of one person by another, and awareness of present conditions. The destiny of spirits of the righteous is different from that of spirits of the wicked. Both Lazarus and the rich man went to a place of departed spirits called in the Hebrew language "Sheol" and in the Greek language "Hades". (Most of the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek).




What we have to remember it is jewish people writing both the greek and the hebrew so they would have thought in hebrew
Hell in Hebrew [url=http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07585&version=kjv]Hell in Hebrew[/url]
then you have the greek translation of the word
[url=http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=86&version=kjv]Hell in Greek[/url]
The problem is it mentions the lake of fire
[url=http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1067&version=kjv]Lake of Fire aka Gehenna this is the Second Death[/url]


Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, F109 and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. F110 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The key verse is verse 14 hell is brought up and the dead are judged in it. This hell I theorise is Sheol and the lake of fire is Gehenna.
So the people in hell are moved from hell to the lake of fire

Quote:

The spirit of Jesus descended into "Sheol", the place of all departed spirits. First He went to the place of the spirits of the righteous. This was called "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom".

From paradise, Jesus went further into the area of "Sheol" reserved for the wicked spirits. This was necessary in order for Him to complete the work of atonement for man's sin. He had to endure both the physical and spiritual penalties of sin. The physical penalty was physical death. The spiritual penalty was separation from God which is called spiritual death. Jesus experienced that in "Sheol".



Lu 23:43 - Show Context
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2Co 12:4 - Show Context
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Re 2:7 - Show Context
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3857&version=kjv]Paradise[/url]

There is no actual biblical evidence for this statement that they quoted you but you can coduce

Mt 12:40 - Show Context
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

There is a verse about the prophets being reserected on the streets , from this they conject that Jesus went down to hell set free all those from hell and they went back with jesus in his ascension.
Quote:

The events between the death and resurrection of Jesus set a new pattern for the destiny of righteous souls. Prior to Christ's resurrection, departed spirits of the righteous went to paradise. After the death and resurrection of Jesus, the spirits of the righteous could ascend immediately into the presence of God. This is confirmed in the record of the death of Stephen.



Acts 7:54-60
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

This is not conjecture from revelation

The King James Version (Authorized)
- Study This Chapter


1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, F3 which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

rev 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; F33 and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life

The prophets are mentioned coming down in New Jerusalem.

YOu asked where these guys are wrong how do they
1. Is the Atonement finished on the cross , saying that the Atonement happened after the cross ?

Anyway most of what they talk about god knows better and he will probably give you better answers and help you with this.

I am doing my best to answer the questions the best way I know how
Ask Philogos there is some major flaws in there doctrine

DOm I know nothing , jesus help me
Hope this helps Dom .
If I was given those questions I would go AHHH

DOm


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2006/9/21 20:17Profile
Azulfire
Member



Joined: 2005/5/30
Posts: 51
Washington state

 Re:

wow much food for thought.....I should of read this post before i posted in WOF one, I too am At a loss on how to answear, God does know better and who better to teach than the holy spirit. glad i dont have to have an answear to get into heaven, that I trust and obey and have faith in him.


_________________
michelle

 2006/9/22 0:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I hope you don't think I am nitpicking here, it is an important doctrine to understand.

We 'nit-pickers' should stick together! :-D

You are right but the comment I was addressing was that the 'atonement was completed' in his experiencing of Sheol after his death. This has to be wrong. Doesn't it?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/9/22 11:03Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: Help with heaven, hell, paradise, sheol and free bible colleges

Dear Coops,

I am sure some will disagree, but I will give you what I believe Christ has shown me.

Luke 23:42-43 (NAS)
And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

As Philologos pointed out, when Christ said, "It is finished", in that moment His life's purpose was complete. Christ had given His life unto death. He had made the sacrifice. As such, Christ did not enter into Hades or Hell. Rather, that very day He went to Paradise.

Christ said on the cross, "this very day you shall be with me in Paradise." Christ did not say, "You shall be with me in Heaven." The promise of Heaven had not yet come, for Christ who was the first to be raised, had not yet been raised. Our hope of Heaven is entirely based upon Christ's resurrection which is established by Paul in 1 Cor 15. We are followers of Christ. We follow where Christ goes. If He goes to Heaven, then we goto Heaven.

The word "Paradise" was used very purposefully by Christ for at the time the Jews believed "Paradise" to be "Abraham's Bosom", the place of rest where the righteous wait until the resurrection. It is fitting then that Christ should go there, as He would be raised 3 days later.

When a person dies, they either enter Hades or Paradise, both are intermediate states where the soul waits until the day of Judgement. Obviously, as Christ said, we have already been judged. We are already doomed due to original sin. Christ, therefore, brought us the hope of resurrection.

Everything has been given unto Christ. He gave His life and so all humanity became His. The righteous and wicked are His. When He died on the cross, all sin was forgiven. And so, we will all be raised. We will be raised unto judgment, the judgement of Christ. There is a day that will come when Christ will judge all men on earth for their deeds. Some will be sent to eternal life, and the rest to eternal damnation.

John 5:28-29 (NAS) "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Those in waiting are also awaiting the judgement of Christ whom all authority has been given. They are waiting for Christ's day of judgment where He will seperate His people and condemn the rest.

Hell was created as a place for the Devil and demons to be punished. It is a place of torment. Death is the consequence of sin. Hell was not the consequence of sin. Hell is the consequence of accepting the Devil as your God. People are sent to Hell because that is where the Devil is going, and if you have made the Devil your God, then you will follow your God into Hell.

Heaven is the throne of God, where Christ will reign. If Christ is our God, then we follow Christ to Heaven. We will go with Him to the place He has prepared for us, in His Father's house.

The day of judgment will come when Christ will judge us according to our deeds. We are saved for a good work, so that Christ can work in us. We are called to produce fruit and let our light shine. The only deeds that are worthy are those done in the light, in the name of Christ, with Christ dwelling inside a person. This means that first we need to have Christ dwelling in us, and then we need to let Christ work through us. We will be judged for our deeds. And so, as a Christian, it is vitally important to let your light shine.

Understanding all this also helps us to understand the significance of the Anti-Christ. God is allowing the Devil to come to earth, much like Christ did, to send an anti-Christ that will deceive many. The anti-Christ is to the wicked as Christ is to the righteous. There will come a day when it will be very clear who is truly Christian and who is not. Those who are not Christian will proclaim allegiance to the anti-Christ. They will proclaim him as their God. They will bow down and worship him. When Christ comes to judge, it will be clear who is Christian and who is not. When a person is sent to Hell, the judgment will be made clear. All our deeds will be brought into the light. There will be no hiding. There will be no faking anymore. We will be exposed before everyone. (Think about that next time you feel tempted.)

Those who chose the Devil as their God will follow him to Hell. Those who have Jesus as their God will follow Him to Heaven. God is love, and so those who are with Jesus will be loved. The Devil hates humanity. And so those who follow the Devil will be eternally tortured by their god the Devil.

Right now, there are a great many people who are blind to this. What they don't understand is that God is giving a time for all His elect to come unto salvation and let their light shine. We will be judged for our deeds. All our deeds will be made manifest on the day of judgment. We will have to answer for everything.

Because so many are blind, they will also be deceived. The truth has come into the world, but people don't want to believe it. Look how many versions of Christianity there are. So many people look to find what fits them best, what makes them feel good rather than accepting the truth that comes in Christ. It is sad, but God is allowing this to happen for the sake of His people.

Anyhow, I hope this helps.
I pray that in your seeking for answers that Christ will lead you.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/9/22 12:12Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

I basically agree with been, but would add; (in my view, anyway) that Jesus' spirit did go immediately to heaven...

Pss 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit

Luke 23:46 Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit

...but His soul went to hell...

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell

Some say that this just refers to death, but the Greek word used for 'here' is 'Hades', and the Book of Revelation says that death (thanatos) and hell (hades) will be cast into the lake of fire. Some say this is 'death' and 'the grave' being thrown into the lake of fire, but that kind of leaves hell hanging out to dry after the last judgment.

Anyway, what I am saying is that I do believe Christ went immediately to heaven, and immediately to hell simultaneously, as He was made body, soul and spirit, just as we are. His spirit went to heaven, his body stayed in the tomb, and his soul went to hell.

Also, as long as we are nit-picking, Jesus was the 'last' Adam. If He was the second, there could be a third and fourth and so-on. This was eloquently spoken by Bro Ravenhill, after I had called Jesus the 'second Adam' up to that point.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/9/24 0:38Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
It seems, to me, that many Bible students have really gone much further than what is revealed to us.


Always the trouble


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/9/24 13:06Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy