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Desi_Jr
Member



Joined: 2006/9/15
Posts: 5


 Spiritual Gifts Described in 1Cor 12-14

It was recently brought to my attention by the Spirit of God that I had received a teaching years ago on speaking in tongues. I accepted this teaching as truth, and as many Christians, or human beings for that matter, I never really dug into the Word of God to verify it as truth.

Immediately I came to repentance and asked God to reveal to me the truth as I embarked on this adventure into 1 Corinthians to allow God to show me by His Spirit of Truth that biblical meaning of the Gift of Tongues.

The revelation I received about the topic of tongues I truly believed is based completely on my desire to allow God to teach me regardless of what I thought I already knew.

I praise the Lord that He is merciful and did not let me continue in the darkness of my own wisdom.

In a nutshell I found that the Greek definition of togues as found in the strongs #1100 is a "supernaturally acquired language"

This definition is used throughout the entire New Testament, in EVERY reference of the New Testament Book, except ONE. Which refence is that? It is in 1Corinthians 14:21. Here Paul uses the word tongues referencing the Book of Isaiah and the word tongues means - "a foreigner, or from a different land"

So the gift of the supernaturally acquiring a language goes in direct correlation to the events that unfolded in every refence to tongues in the book of Acts. Paul uses the same meaning as did Luke in the book of Acts. There is no difference, and the reference Paul makes to the book of Isaiah in 1Corinthians 14:21 confirms the use of that word.

So it is a known earthly language, not unintelligable speech!

So when Paul says in Chapter 14 of 1Corinthians that he who prays in a tongue and does so without interpretation has his mind without understanding,unless you ask God to give you interpretation.
He goes on the say...what shall I do then,
Well, if I don't understand what I am saying then,I will speak in my native language even though I have the gift of tongues, so that I will be able to pray by the Spirit of God, and at the same time with my understanding, and also those who are hearing my prayer will be able to say AMEN! and be in agreement with me.

Also..and this was one of the biggest revelations of my study..the word UNKOWN was added to the original greek text. So when Paul says if I speak in unknown tongues for example in chapter 14.....the text really reads...if I speak in a supernaturally acquired language...

Remarkable...so many grasp on to the word UNKNOWN and run with it to make their doctrine of unintelligable prayer language directed to God from man fit to man's understanding. But the word UNKNOWN was never found in the book of 1 Corinthians.

Lastly I found that in every instance in Acts,and in Pauls explaination on the use of the Gift of Tongues it is God speaking to man and revealing to man the woderful works of God.

In Acts 2 the Apostles were not addressing the multitudes. They were addressing God as the Spirit of God gave them the utterance of the marvelous works and wonders of God. PETER was the one that addressed the multitudes. The same in Acts 10 and Acts 19.

So when people say...this is my private prayer language because I don't know what to pray for....there is no biblical teaching that supports that unintelligable speech from man to God in petition and prayer.

However my brothers and sisters, I would add this, God judges the hearts of men. I know that so many do practice unintelligable speech out of a true desire to commune with God. Those to blame are the teachers that go one teaching this interpretation or any interpretation of scripture without ever digging in the Word first, line upone line precept upon precept, here a little there a little, with the willingness to put aside everything they know as truth all for the Glory of God.

May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering!

Desi Jr

 2006/9/15 14:46Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Spiritual Gifts Described in 1Cor 12-14

Quote:

Also..and this was one of the biggest revelations of my study..the word UNKOWN was added to the original greek text. So when Paul says if I speak in unknown tongues for example in chapter 14.....the text really reads...if I speak in a supernaturally acquired language...

Remarkable...so many grasp on to the word UNKNOWN and run with it to make their doctrine of unintelligable prayer language directed to God from man fit to man's understanding. But the word UNKNOWN was never found in the book of 1 Corinthians.



Indeed, "unknown" is something various translations have employed in order to better help the reader understand what is being said. It is not in the original greek. However, it is clear from the context that the tongue being spoken is unknown:

1 Cor 14:10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I [b]do not know the meaning of the language[/b], I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. 13 [b][u]Therefore[/u] let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.[/b]

Notice how in verse 11 the person speaking in tongues does "not know" the language they are speaking, and those who he speaks to will consider him a barbarian because of the speech that is not understood. Thus, the tongue is "unknown." So, when various translations have inserted "unknown" throughout 1 Cor 14, while not demanded to understand the passage, is a perfectly acceptable thing for a translator to do to help clarify what is said contextually.

Because the utterance given in tongues is not known, Paul therefore says in vs 13 that an interpretation should be prayed for, otherwise, nobody is going to get anything out of it, as what is being said will be "unknown."

Quote:

So it is a known earthly language, not unintelligable speech!



It may indeed be an earthly language, but frankly, with the thousands of languages that have existed over the years, not to mention local dialects, it is going to probably be a rare thing that anybody understands what is being spoken without the supernatural aid of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 seems to be the exception, not the rule. As if people understood what was being said, there would be no need for the gift of interpreting tongues as seen in 1 Cor 14.

However, I have personally heard testimonies of individuals hearing people speak in tongues, and actually know what was being said by that person, though the person speaking the tongue had no clue as to what they were saying.

Quote:

...this is my private prayer language because I don't know what to pray for....there is no biblical teaching that supports that unintelligable speech from man to God in petition and prayer.



You are speaking contrary to:

1 Cor 14:14 For if I [b][u]pray[/u] in a tongue[/b], my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Cor 14:28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; [u]and let him speak to himself and to God.[/u]

Therefore, the gift of speaking in unknown tongues is used as a form of prayer to God.


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Jimmy H

 2006/9/15 16:54Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Desi Jr.


You are absolutely correct in your interpretation of the Word of God. This statement does not make me and authority, but the Spirit has said the same to me. Amen?

1 Corinthians 14:13-16 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

13 and 14 are not a permission of Paul to speak thus. They are pessimistic warning against this practice in think this is a gift that builds up body. That is why 15 and 16 clarify, speak in the spirit and being in the spirit, The Holy Spirit in you will always speak that which brings forth understanding and fruit unto initial salvation or working out our salvation with fear and trembling, not using a gift that does not exist and say it does.

He that is in the room might be edified to upbuilding of the Body of Christ in speaking, blessing, singing in the spirit with understanding. Paul says all this wrong speaking does is build up oneself. That is the pride of man being used by the Satan of darkness.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Also Paul says grow up. Amen. 1 Corinthians 14:19-20 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

If you don't know what to Pray, the Holy Spirit does and He will speak to God for us. Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Amen Desi Jr.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/9/16 2:20Profile









 Re:

I am continualy amazed over the years how some well meaning christians can misunderstand the truth about the gift of tongues. So far you have all made the error of conclusion, based on a general definition of a word, as opposed to what the "context" it's used in says.

1 cor 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue "SPEAKETH NOT ONTO MEN, but UNTO GOD: for NO MAN understandeth him; howbeiit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

See he is not talking to any man even one who speaks a diffrent language he is talking to God!

1 cor 14:4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth HIMSELF....

vs 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues....

now read the rest of what Paul says about tongues in light of this.

I know that all do not speak in tongues. However those who do are often shunned by those who don't saying," It's not for today" or "it's not scriptural"


Yes there is also the gift of tongues where you speak a earthly language diffrent than your own. But in the corinthian passages Paul is speaking "in context" of the "tongues of angels" 1 cor 13:1

Before you respond by going somewhere else you must first look at what I wrote and explain the exact scriptures I quoted before you go find other scriptures or mens reasonings.

I am not mad or anything. I am just trying to show you the importance of "context" in regards to definition of words.

Lastly if someone can show me what these exact scriptures really mean and if it is diffrent from what I said I will adjust my understanding accordingly. God bless, John

 2006/9/16 4:12
Desi_Jr
Member



Joined: 2006/9/15
Posts: 5


 Re:

My dear brother in Christ,
Context is key. So....lets look at the context of the entire book of 1Corinthians....Paul pleads with the church to grow up. He tells them in Chapter 3 that he understands that they wish to be spiritual...and he wished to speak to them in a spiritual way. But he goes on to tell them that they are not spiritual because they are still babies that don't understand yet the foundation teachings of Christ. He continues in chapters 12-14 to plead with them to grow up in their thinking.

So contextually you must read chapters 12-14 as chapters of rebuking and reproofing...in other words they are misunderstanding the use of tongues. Paul never separates the Gift of tongues into different types of uses. It's always the same use....to speak the wonderful works of God as the Spirit reveals them to the speaker. Paul verifies that the speaker does not understand these things he will utter...but he should if speaks them outloud.

I urge you my brother...that when you read the scriptures you read the entire book as a whole and not extrapolate the texts or verses that fit what you want it to believe. It is my wholehearted OPINION that ever person who speaks in unintelligable speech and uses it as a prayer language to God is doing so with a heart to really commune with God...HOWEVER... I am 10% sure that the teaching of the Holy Spirit and HOW to speak in tongues was taught to you by man first...then you just made it fit with a few scripture verses here and there. This happens all the time. A teacher or preacher introduces a doctrine...and if everyone seems to go along with it...well then IT MUST BE TRUE. And no one ever bothers to say..well let me see what God says before I adopt this doctrine.

To address your quoting of Paul in chapter 14...can I ask you a question regarding context?

Why are you dismissing in chapter 12 when he clearly states that not everyone will perform in these giftings of the Holy Ghost? In the beginning of chapters 12 and again in 14 he has not changed the subject...its still the same...gifts of the Spirit. But then we go and say...well it does'nt mean that here...why not?
It's the same topic. And again....the word unknown is not in the original hebrew text. ITS NOT THERE. And again the greek tranlation for the word tongues in every reference in the entire New Testament means....a supernaturally acquired language. Which fits perfectly with all of the Acts references of tongues. Please brother...don't let your zealousness for God overshadow his truth.

I love you,
Desi, Jr.

 2006/9/16 10:38Profile









 Re:

Context is essential. Both from a whole book view as well as chapter and then verse. One of the primary things I do is read the whole letter through completly. Just as if my wife were writing me I would read the whole letter. I have read through 1 cor probably thirty times and then diffrent passages within the book countless over my short 19 years in the Lord.

I do not see 12-14 as rebuking but rather teaching time on the diverse gifts of the Spirit.

Next I was saved in late 87. The minister that baptized me told me that I would speak in tongues when I came up out of the water. I did not speak in tongues. I didn't let it bother me cuz I knew that 2 days prior the Holy ghost had come into me. It was after 3 1/2 years of growth in the Lord that I relooked at tongues and shortly there after began to speak in tongues in spite of being under teaching that most tongues are false.

"no one ever bothers to say well let me see what God say's before I adopt this doctrine." That is a hyper statement to make to say "NO ONE" Many do ask God including myself and he said yes.

Next, on chap 14, instead of answering it like I asked anyone to do, you say I ignore what Paul says previously. I did not, please read it again. I said I know not all will speak in tongues.

Next You sya it's not in the "hebrew" translation. Is it in the greek translation in 12-14? It dosent matter to me if it is or isn't cuz the context of Paul in those verses still explains what I said even without the word "unKnown"

Next you say the definition is a supernaturaly aquired language. Well that fit's what I said cuz in dosen't say supernaturaly "earthly" language doe's it?

Now I have answered line by line what you wrote. You have not answered line by line what I wrote and asked whoever would answer to do. Becuase I have seen over and over that many christians instead of adressing the scriptur ein question will go somewhere else and say But see over hear?

Our understanding of a doctrine must include all scriptures on that subject and when we reach our conlusion it cannot render any of those scriptures void or unreasonable.

Lastly this "don't let your zealousness for God overshadow his truth". That sounds a little condescending on your part. Now I admit that I may sound condescending to you and if so I am sorry. that is not my intent and it probably wasn't your intent either.

So again read my origianl post and try and explain the what the exact verses I quoted really mean in light of what you are saying. I hope others will join in. God bless,John

p.s. I have to get off the computer other soldiers are waiting. I will follow up a little later.

 2006/9/16 13:11
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Two questions: When the Holy Spirit brings truth to you about the scriptures does He speak to you with understanding or a heavenly language you don't understand?


If when we pray and don't know what to pray and we with understanding from the word, know that the Holy Spirit is praying for us, why are we speaking into the air in a gibberish that even we don't understand, do we think because we are making sounds that God understands what we are saying when we don't?

1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Then why pray at all. My spirit is not what must be edified, but the Spirit of Christ that is in us, it is His Body the Church, not ours. Build up what? Not self.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/16 14:21Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Mabey this might help;

One day I found myself utterly confused about "tougues" in 1 cor 14:12. Compared to Acts 2 it was obviously not talking about the same gift of toungues. Let me explain.

1. In Acts chpt 2 all the people who heard the galieans speaking heard them in thier language.

Man Speaks -----> all languages understand.

2. In 1 Cor 14:12, there is an aparent need for an interpreter!

Man speaks ----->One person understands.

Well in Acts chapter 2 there was no need for an interpreter because the people were speaking with the gift of toungues. In 1 Cor 14:12, there was a need for an interpreter because some body was speaking in a language which needed interpretation!




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Kristy

 2006/9/16 20:34Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

A debate that we won't hear the end of until we meet in the Kingdom. I know of very solid men of God who stood and stand on both sides. Although I don't agree with John R Rice down to every detail, I lean towards his teaching in which he basically said that tongues was a language given supernaturally for someone to hear the gospel.

If you don't agree and love Jesus, so be it, let's both serve God.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/9/16 20:51Profile









 Re:

"Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and in the SAME JUDGMENT" 1 COR 1:10,11

Paul beseeched us to great things here. He knew it was possible otherwise he would not have beseeched in the name of our Lord.

One of the main problems in corinth was teachers or "apostles" drawing the body onto them by saying "Well I speak and I learned from Paul" or I teach and I am teaching straight from Christ" etc. Paul responds by saying, No Christ is not divided and you are not to think more highly of yourselves as teachers who are dividing the body.

Do we need teachers? Absolutly! But let not many of us be that for we will incurr a stricter judgment. I know I will be judged more strongly on that day as will many of you who are teachers in the body.

So Paul says "hey you teachers, speak the "same" thing and have the same mind and same judgement".

Thats a tall order but it is acheivable.

How do we acheive this. Well I have tried to help in acheiving this here by saying,"answer the exact scriptures I have quoted. Explain what those exact scriptures mean. Do not just go quote another scripture and ignore the exact scriptures I put down. Explain these exact scriptures,"then" you can go grab the other scriptures.

So far no one on this thread has done that.

I say that this is part of how we achieve same mindness on doctrine.

If I said I don't believe Jesus is God and you quote John 1:1 to me and I respond by going to a scripture that says he was a man you will direct me back to John 1:1 and say you what does 1;1 mean? explain 1;1. I then must address 1;1 specificaly in order for us to go on in conversation. Does this make sense or am I talking nonsense?

I, in my self, do not care if you speak in tongues or not. What I do care about is when someone says it is not what the scripture allows or teaches and those who do it learned it from men not God. If you say that you should expect to be challenged on it.

Now please try and address the specific scriptures in my original post otherwise we will not be closer to achieving what Paul beseeched us on. God bless, John

 2006/9/17 1:01





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