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saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Old testament church

I recently heard a speaker say that there is no reference to the church in the Old Testament, he said that the church was mystery that was not revealed to anyone in the Old Testament era.

This is based on I believe Romans 16:25,26
[i] Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of [b]the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, [/b]and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: [/i]

I found this to be a fascinating idea, he also backed it up with Old Testamenet verses sadly i cant remember them, which have long periods of time between consecutive verses, thus the mystery of the Church was hidden from human author of the text.

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas for or against this that might flesh the issue out a bit.

with love

matt and mim


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matt

 2006/9/10 9:39Profile









 Re: Old testament church


Hi saved_matt,

Long ago I heard a preacher say 'Adam walked with God in the garden - CHURCH' and link many other OT scriptures to the concept that those moments of communion between God and man back then, were in the same Spirit as ours are today - though on a different basis.

The mystery, I believe, is something more to do with the fact that when Messiah came, He was going to bring the GENTILES into a relationship with God. By the time He did come, the Jewish leaders were so full of their own importance and scriptures, and traditions of men, that not only were they unable to recognise Him for themselves (for the most part), but, they were also working hard to prevent others from entering into peace with Him.

I think the mind-boggling thing which was missed by the disciples - except John (chap 10) - was the concept of one fold, and one Shepherd - CHURCH.

 2006/9/10 13:11
JoeA
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 364
Decatur, Illinois

 Re:

Hello,

The mystery is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 1:26 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

And about the Church in the Old Testament, i believe Hebrews 4 (or 5) talks about the children of Israel in the wilderness, and i always though of them as part of the Church.

This is a good topic for study though.


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Joe Auvil

 2006/9/10 13:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

What was Christ going to build His Church upon?

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

A Rock? Peter? No but upon the revelation from the Father the Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

This is the revealed revelation from the Father that this man standing before them is the Son of the Living God. He said it to Israel and they killed Him for it.

This is His Church the Body of Christ. The old testament church Was God's chosen people the Children of Israel, not the Body of Christs' Church the son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/11 4:41Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Old testament church

Quote:
I recently heard a speaker say that there is no reference to the church in the Old Testament, he said that the church was mystery that was not revealed to anyone in the Old Testament era.

It is a fallacy which is repeated from one generation of preachers to the next. It is the basis of Darbyism and Scofield dispensationalism that the church was first revealed to Paul and that the other apostles did not have the revelation. This led Bullinger and others to conclude that the Petrine (church in Peter's day) utterly failed and the Bride Church is Pauline. (stemming from Paul's revelation)

This is a basic assumption of the Parenthesis teaching of Darby, Scofield, La Haye and many others but it is a relative newcomer; earlier Bible commentators know nothing about this 'Pauline church'. The Parenthesis theory teaches that the Church on earth today is a temporary interruption to God's work with Israel. It will be 'removed' in the Rapture and Israel will take the stage again. It theory was often illustrated with the picture of the Jewish train having been shunted into a siding to make way for the Gentile express. When the Gentile express has gone through the Jewish train will be brought out of it siding and continue its journey.

The actual word 'Church' does not appear in the New Testament but then it doesn't appear in the New Tesatment either! The English word church comes from the Greek adjective 'kuriakos' which means 'belonging to the Lord' (1Cor 11:20; Rev 1:10). It was probably used to describe buildings which 'belonged to the Lord' and consequently became known as 'kirks' or 'churches'.

William Tyndale (1526) would not use the word 'church' expect for heathen temples, but King James wanted all the 'religious words' put back into his Bible so the KJV has the word 'church' appearing 117 times. It is used in the KJV to translate the Greek word 'ekklesia' which means a 'gathered' group, assembly, gathering, congregation would all have been better translations.

This is where is gets interesting... (I hope) the Greek Old Testament used the word 'ekklesia' 77 times. It was often used to translate the Hebrew word 'qahal' which means a gathering. This is the word used in“I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the [u]congregation[/u] will I praise thee.”
(Psa 22:22 KJVS) In the Greek NT this verse is quoted and uses the word 'ekklesia'which in the KJV we find in...“Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the [u]church[/u] will I sing praise unto thee.” (Heb 2:12 KJVS)
There was an 'Old Testament Church'. The question is 'is it the same as the New Testament Church?'
;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/12 6:28Profile





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