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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Justification Faith Vs Works

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CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
But thats the way Abel did it.



Notice that in Hebrews, the author writes "[b]By faith[/b] Abel offered...by which he obtained [b]witness that he was righteousness[/b].." (Heb 11:4). This comes back to the age old Judaic question, "Was Abraham [b]justified by[/b] his circumcision?" Of course we know that Abraham was Justified [b]by faith[/b]. The circumcision was just a [b]sign[/b] of his covenant, not the covenant itself. Abel wasn't "saved" by his sacrifice, but by his sacrifice, his righteousness (which was by faith) was displayed. One can assume that there was an event, that is unspoken in Scripture, where he came to a realisation of his need for an atoning sacrifice. It was his faith in that sacrificial atonement that saved him, not the act of sacrifice. I know it sounds somantic, but allow me to explain the reason for this deliberate distinction.

Therefore, GraceAlone's order is correct without exception. Rearrange the order, and you don't have salvation, but damnation. Fruit that comes before salvation is [b]self righteousness[/b] and therefore is as [b]filthy rags[/b] before God. Those of us who have come to a place of usefullness in God, have come to a keen realisation the "in me an my flesh there is no good thing". Paul made it clear that he had much to boast about, in a worldly sence, but he counted it all as [b]dung[/b] when compared to the glories of Christ. He would rather boast in his weaknesses, knowing that when he was weak, Christ was made strong.

Herein is the genius of God's grace revealed:
Quote:
"For by grace (from God) are ye saved (by God) through faith (in God); and that is not of yourselves: it is a gift [b]of God[/b]:"
[b]Eph 2:8 (emphasis added)[/b]


Note the contrast that follows:
Quote:
"Not of works (by us), lest any man should boast."
[b]Eph 2:9 (emphasis added)[/b]


And then the following reason behind this salvation:
Quote:
"For we are [b]His workmanship[/b], created in Christ Jesus [b]unto good works[/b], which God (not us) hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
[b]Eph 2:10 (emphasis added)[/b]



I hope this helps in clarification.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/9/7 19:38Profile









 Re:

The point is made that Abel was NOT depraved. He could make choices from a freewill. His fully choosing and giving his best, pleased God. Was he saved? He was justified but had to wait for the Blood of Jesus to be shed that peace with God would be made complete, allowing him entrance into the presence of God. Paradise held him secure for that moment when Jesus set him free.

Respectfully,

Orm

 2006/9/7 20:18
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
The point is made that Abel was NOT depraved.



Where is this point made? Is it actually stated in Scripture, or is this an Arminian interpretation of the events?

As on who leans more on the Arminian side of the predetination debate, I am consantly aware of the need to remove such "glasses", as they have often led to my missing a profound revelation of God's truth, plainly spoken in Scripture.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/9/9 5:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

Ormly wrote:
The point is made that Abel was NOT depraved.



Where is this point made? Is it actually stated in Scripture, or is this an Arminian interpretation of the events?

As on who leans more on the Arminian side of the predetination debate, I am consantly aware of the need to remove such "glasses", as they have often led to my missing a profound revelation of God's truth, plainly spoken in Scripture.



Abel, himself, makes the point.

However, please point out the "plainess" to me, that I missed, if you believe me to be in error.

Respectfully,

Orm

 2006/9/9 6:39
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


_________________
Kristy

 2006/9/10 17:22Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:

Abel, himself, makes the point.

However, please point out the "plainess" to me, that I missed, if you believe me to be in error.



Not stating that you are in error, only asking to point out where it is clearly stated, and citing a reason for my saking. That's all.:-)


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/9/10 19:15Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Abel, himself, makes the point.

However, please point out the "plainess" to me, that I missed, if you believe me to be in error.



Not stating that you are in error, only asking to point out where it is clearly stated, and citing a reason for my saking. That's all.:-)


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/9/10 19:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Abel, himself, makes the point.

However, please point out the "plainess" to me, that I missed, if you believe me to be in error.



Not stating that you are in error, only asking to point out where it is clearly stated, and citing a reason for my saking. That's all.:-)



God had respect for his blood sacrifice. Abel honored God and was pleased to do so. Sure doesn't sound like depravity to me. Of course, there were others we can both point to and conclude the same about them. I shouldn't think that necessary. But then you may wish to state they were special people God specifically chose, i.e., the special grace thing. If that is so, then you will have come up with where that is stated to be the case.

Turnabout is fairplay. :-D

 2006/9/10 19:39
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
God had respect for his blood sacrifice. Abel honored God and was pleased to do so. Sure doesn't sound like depravity to me.


One one hand we have someone saying that Abel wasn't depraved because he made a blood sacrifice that God respected, and on the other we have someone who says that Abel sacrificed because he realised that his own deprevity required it, and this pleased God. I think that either concluson requires a certain amount of speculation. Obviously I take the latter stance, based on the later revealed principle that "without the shedding of blood, there is no remision of sin".

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Abel was born "depraved" and therefore we was destined to sin, but more that Abel was bor into a sinful family, and the likelyhood of him sinning was so probable that it was nigh on impossible to avoid. Once he sinned, he became depraved.

Can offered a product that was the result of the sweat of his brow, which is a type of trying to come to God in our own strengh. God could not honour this, as it denied his depravity. Abel realised that the fruit of the ground would not suffice to cover his sin, and that the only answer was "blood for blood", "life for life". God honoured this, because it acknowledged his depravity in a practical sense.

The issue of "depravity" is the issue of "goodness". Depravity is the absence of goodness. Note that Jesus responded that there is "none good but God", when one tried to call him "good teacher". If that be the response of God Incarnate, then how much more mortal Abel.

I welcome you expounding on Abel's lack of depravity, and how it maintains consistancy with the rest of revealed Scripture, which states that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/9/13 10:45Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Justification Faith Vs Works

Quote:
joeSOC wrote:
Hello everybody My name is Joe. I wish to know what the Author meant by the verse below, as opposed to justification by Faith, which was expressed in the writings of Paul.
[b]Jam 2:21[/b] [color=990000]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?[/color]
Thank you


[b]Rom 4:2[/b] [color=990000]if Abraham were justified by works, he has grounds for to glory; but not before God.[/color]
This is talking about circumcision(Rom 4:9-12) which is works of the Law.

Notice it sais in Jam 2:21, "when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar"
This is works of faith and not of the law.
Why did He offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
it was obediance to the command Genesis 22:2.

It would be a sin not to offer Isaac his son upon the altar.
Therefore not haveing works of faith is sin.

Faith is a collaborator with works.
We can't have faith without works, but we can but shouldn't have works withouth faith.

 2006/9/13 11:31Profile





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