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GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Hey thanks for that information! That was some interesting information on John MacArthur. I truly respect his work and ministry.

I guess I should better define my terms.

1 Peter 2:11
"Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul"

I believe our flesh is at war with our spirit not that we have our old nature in a cage somewhere in our heart next to Christ.

I guess I was a little cross-eyed about "the flesh" and "the old nature". Forgive me and be paitient with me. :-?

Still, even though we are given a new nature it is God who provides sanctification and justification. I think I'm pretty familiar with Weslian theology on sanctification. Personally, I am convinced that the war Paul is talking about in his members is his flesh vs his spirit.


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Kristy

 2006/10/12 14:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Forgive me and be paitient with me.


Nothing to forgive, we are learning together here. :-)


Perhaps we are straying from our 'original sin' a little...
Quote:
I believe our flesh is at war with our spirit not that we have our old nature in a cage somewhere in our heart next to Christ.


...but the ongoing consequences of Adam's transgression and the Sin to which it gave entrance has its ongoing effects. Robert W and myself have talked around this 'flesh and spirit' thing for years now, not to prove one right against the other but simply to try to get a handle on where the 'war' is taking place and consequently how we may prepare ourselves for it.

Here's a provoking verse...

[color=0000ff]“For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but [u]tempted in all things in like manner[/u], sin apart.” (Heb 4:15 DRBY)[/color]

I know this verse is a great comfort to us but what is it telling us about the nature of a Christian's temptations; what does it mean when it says He was 'tempted in all things in like manner'? I have switched to Darby's translation here as he avoids the word 'points' which our KJV supplies but is not in the original.

If we consider the nature of Christ's temptations where do we see their origin? I think we shall all be agreed that he had no 'Sin nature'so that eliminates 'the Old Man' from our list of suspects.

The Hebrews statement says He was 'tempted... in like manner'. 'like manner' to what or to whom? Surely this means the kind of people like the author and recipients of Hebrews. It is 'we' who have this High Priest and the 'we' is people with a shared experience. This is not necessarily referring to the whole of mankind but to that section of mankind who are defined by the 'we' of the author.

Now, if He was tempted in all things in like manner as 'we' what does that say about 'our' temptations? If His temptations came from without and ours come from within how can we say he was 'tempted in all things in like manner' to us?

The kind of people that the author of Hebrews has in mind are described in that letter...[color=0000ff]...“those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come...” (Heb 6:4-5 KJVS)[/color] The 'we' of Hebrews is defined by the common experience of author and recipient. Christ was tempted in all things in like manner to people with this kind of experience. So where is the seat of our temptations?

Thoughts?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/10/13 4:10Profile









 Re:

I really enjoy Winkie Pratneys writings on original sin.

If you can find any of his articles on the subject, they are precious.

 2006/10/13 4:47
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I really enjoy Winkie Pratneys writings on original sin.


Personally, I disagree strongly with Winkie Pratney's teachings on Original Sin or at least those I have read online. He is pretty much straight down the line Finney who rejected the classic teaching of Original Sin altogether.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/10/13 6:25Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The 'we' of Hebrews is defined by the common experience of author and recipient. Christ was tempted in all things in like manner to people with this kind of experience. So where is the seat of our temptations?



I like the way you sort of flipped that verse in Hebrews around to show that we are tempted in all points like as was Christ ([i]since[/i] we have been regenerated). At least that what I got from it. I think I have come to terms with this more over the last few years, but I don't have it all figured out. There is a natural side of us that has needs or 'desires'. These desires are natural and God given. In themselves they are good. Yet, Reidhead defined 'temptation' as an appeal to the intellect to fulfill a good desire in a bad way. If I have a good desire and am offered a bad means to fulfill it and an attraction develops, I think it is safe to say that I am in the 'throes' of temptation. I see our natural desires as a magnet and anything with iron content will attract (as it were). The problem is that certain metalic items have been marked by God as being off limits (unlawful). This is why my decision or 'will' comes in.

If I sense that my natural desire is 'pulling' at something unlawful I have to make a conscieous choise to 'turn loose'. I wish it was that simple, but really it is not. Some of these things are not just 'turned off' like a switch. This is where the overall governance of our life has to be that of the Holy Spirit. When we are FULL of the Holy Spirit then the phenomena of God working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure is at its maximum. If we 'hold back' and don't allow the Holy Spirit to daily fill us and maintain that fulness then we get into trouble. Just my experience. It is [i]not[/i] a sin nature we are fighting, but our human nature in a world of many many sinful means.

If we had a sinful nature I would argue that we would be gratified by the act of disobedience itself. Rebellion would be our 'meat'; whereas now we are gratified or I should say "our meat" is to do the will of Him that was sent of God (Christ). We are in Christ and it was His meat to do the will of the Father; likewise because we are in Him we share that experience.

So the struggle, to me, is our initial willingness to be surrendered to God in a way that He will work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. If we work at this at any other level we are really only treating symptoms of the cause of our struggle. Temptation comes when the temptor comes. These 'temptations' or 'suggestions' come from [u]without[/u] OR as MaCarthur may say they are due to residual memories of past temptations. If the temptation somehow originates in me then it is due to my mind needing renewed. This is also the working of the Holy Spirit as we choose not to recall those things. The 'will' not to recall has to come from the Holy Spirit (I think). This is God working in us both to will and to do. We are back to being continually FILLED with the Spirit again. Before I go I am not saying 'supression of the sin nature' by the Holy Spirit, I am saying supression of anything that may appeal to our natural desires and cause a temptation. I think Sin Nature is simply a nature that is gratified by rebellion itself. I don't see that believers can have a nature such as that.



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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/10/13 9:02Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I like the way you sort of flipped that verse in Hebrews around to show that we are tempted in all points like as was Christ (since we have been regenerated). At least that what I got from it.


That is what I was trying to do anyway. :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/10/13 9:36Profile





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