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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Original Sin

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 Re:

sorry I can't get this to clear

 2006/9/2 14:20









 Re:

See next post, Thanks.

 2006/9/2 14:22









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Thank you nrambeck for that excellent definition and rebutal.RevKerrigan, as the brother has pointed out Ezekiel 18 is most important. I would like to add that we inherit the "knowledge of good and evil",(the ten commandments written on our heart). We inheit it from Adam and Eve but we do not inherit "their guilt". Then because we are weak we inevitably sin and thus justly deserve condemnation from God. However as we on this site know,"God is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentence" God bless, John

 2006/9/2 14:27









 Re:

Again sorry for the multiple post something happened with the server

 2006/9/2 14:36
philologos
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 Re:

nrambeck on 2006/9/2 18:52:04posted...

Quote:
I have found that the most ardent defenders of the doctrine of Original Sin (besides Calvinists) are sinners who lover their sin.


This is a disgraceful comment. One of the most ardent defenders of the doctrine of original sin was John Wesley and if you think him a Calvinist you are much mistaken, nor did he 'love his sin'. Try a dose of his sermon on [url=http://gbgm-umc.org/UMHistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-044.stm]Original Sin[/url].

It includes this famous comment where Wesley used the doctrine as a litmus test of Biblical Christianity... "that all who deny this, call it original sin, or by any other title, are but Heathens still, in the fundamental point which differences Heathenism from Christianity. They may, indeed, allow, that men have many vices; that some are born with us; and that, consequently, we are not born altogether so wise or so virtuous as we should be; there being few that will roundly affirm, "We are born with as much propensity to good as to evil, and that every man is, by nature, as virtuous and wise as Adam was at his creation." But here is the shibboleth: Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil? Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupted? Or, to come back to the text, is "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil continually?" Allow this, and you are so far a Christian. Deny it, and you are but an Heathen still."

Let me make it clear that I am talking about congenital sin and NOT genital guilt. The two are separable.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/2 18:29Profile
philologos
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 Re:

thingsabove on 2006/9/2 19:27:02 posted...

Quote:
Thank you nrambeck for that excellent definition and rebutal.RevKerrigan, as the brother has pointed out Ezekiel 18 is most important. I would like to add that we inherit the "knowledge of good and evil",(the ten commandments written on our heart). We inheit it from Adam and Eve but we do not inherit "their guilt".



Your misunderstanding of the doctrine seems to be tied in to your concept of 'inheritance' as the method of transmission. The method of transmission is understood in different ways by many who hold the fundamental concept of 'Original Sin'. This is the reason I prefer the phrase 'congenital sin' implying that we are born with it but not necessarily by inheriting it.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/2 18:34Profile
philologos
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 Re:

nrambeck on 2006/9/2 18:52:04 posted...

Quote:
The standard definition of original sin which was first developed by St. Augustine, is the idea that all men inherit the guilt of Adam. This definition of original sin is the fountainhead of Calvinist theology. Without it the Calvinist system of theology falls apart.



I am no supporter of the Calvinist system but this statement is wildly inaccurate and the doctrine of original sin is much older than Augustine. Tertullian 197-220 AD (Augustine of Hippo was later 354-430 AD) was one of the ante-Nicene fathers. He wrote…
"NOTWITHSTANDING THE DEPRAVITY OF
MAN’S SOUL BY ORIGINAL SIN, THERE IS YET LEFT
A BASIS WHEREON DIVINE GRACE CAN WORK FOR
ITS RECOVERY BY SPIRITUAL REGENERATION
There is, then, besides the evil which supervenes on the soul from the
intervention of the evil spirit, an antecedent, and in a certain sense natural,
evil which arises from its corrupt origin. For, as we have said before, the
corruption of our nature is another nature having a God and father of its
own, namely the author of (that) corruption."

And there are others, but as Tertullian is the best I will leave it at that. Augustine defined the issues much more precisely as a result of his writings against Pelagius, and prescribed 'infant baptism' as its solution! BUt the concept is much older than Augustine.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/2 18:46Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
This is a disgraceful comment. One of the most ardent defenders of the doctrine of original sin was John Wesley and if you think him a Calvinist you are much mistaken, nor did he 'love his sin'. Try a dose of his sermon on Original Sin.



Yes, I'm familiar with Wesley's defense of Original Sin. I just disagree with him. Wesley probably had in mind Unitarian/Universalism when writing on this topic, because of their teaching that men are generally good with occasional bad streaks and as generally good are not worthy of the wrath of God.

Finney also fought hard against the Unitarians because he, like Wesley, believed in the universal depravity of men. He taught that men were currupt at their very core because of the motives and intention of their hearts. He simply dismissed the idea of sin nature and original sin, because those ideas assume that sin and guilt are consitutional traits rather than moral traits. Men cannot be held accountable for something that is, of necessity, a part of their nature.

I, of course, didn't say that all who believe in the doctrine of Original Sin are "sinners who love their sin." There are lots of really great Christians that hold to this particular doctrine (yet, I've found that many have never fully considered the idea).

I just wanted to point out that the vast majority of unrepentent sinners, will quickly and ardently excuse their sin as a result of human nature instead of taking responsibility for their free moral choices.

Concerning congenital sin and genital guilt, I believe you may have made a bad reference to terms. Congenital mean "following from reproduction" which would correctly define the standard doctrine of sin nature, that sin is passed via the reproductive process. Genital is just a term that references reproduction. Maybe your could elaborate.

 2006/9/3 22:27Profile
nrambeck
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 Re:

Quote:
I am no supporter of the Calvinist system but this statement is wildly inaccurate and the doctrine of original sin is much older than Augustine. Tertullian 197-220 AD (Augustine of Hippo was later 354-430 AD) was one of the ante-Nicene fathers.



I'll accede your point that others before Augustine held to an idea of original sin. I think it is somewhat dramatic though to call my statement "wildly inaccurate." Augustine is usually the one credited with developing the doctrine because of his debate with Pelagius. Augustine used his political power to have Pelagius declared a heretic, thus codifying Original Sin as undisputable orthodoxy.

Some assert that Augustine defended and developed the doctrine of Original Sin in order to uphold the longstanding tradition of infant baptism. I've never looked at the evidence myself.

 2006/9/3 23:01Profile
philologos
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Quote:
Some assert that Augustine defended and developed the doctrine of Original Sin in order to uphold the longstanding tradition of infant baptism. I've never looked at the evidence myself.



!!! in which case is it not a little premature to brand him as you do?

Tertlullian's dates and the way he approaches the topic makes it clear that it was an axiom of Christian belief already. Tertullian did not invent the teaching he is merely commenting on it.

Quote:
Concerning congenital sin and genital guilt, I believe you may have made a bad reference to terms. Congenital mean "following from reproduction" which would correctly define the standard doctrine of sin nature, that sin is passed via the reproductive process. Genital is just a term that references reproduction. Maybe your could elaborate.

Words change their meanings in ordinary life and a word's derivation is not always an indication of its current use.

congenital |kənˌdʒɛnɪt(ə)l|
adjective (esp. of a disease or physical abnormality) present from birth : a congenital malformation of the heart.

and from an online medical dictionary...congenital

Existing at and usually before, birth, referring to conditions that are present at birth, regardless of their causation.

Origin: L. Congenitus = born together

and from the Cambridge Dictionary...congenital Show phonetics
adjective
1 SPECIALIZED describes a disease or condition that exists at or from birth:
a congenital abnormality/disease

2 describes someone who always shows a particular bad quality:
a congenital liar

and from the onlinr Merriam-Webstercongenital
One entry found for congenital.
Main Entry: con·gen·i·tal
Pronunciation: k&n-'je-n&-t&l, kän-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin congenitus, from com- + genitus, past participle of gignere to bring forth -- more at KIN
1 a : existing at or dating from birth b : constituting an essential characteristic : INHERENT c : acquired during development in the uterus and not through heredity
2 : being such by nature

But I am happy to switch to "Constitutional Sin" if you would prefer. My point is that the term 'heriditary sin' implies physical transmission which is a theological speculution.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/4 5:21Profile





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